New 360/12 Issue

[Johnny_Voodoo]

I recently received a new 360/12 (a birthday preset from my lovely wife). I love this guitar but I am having problems keeping the low E in tune. It seems the intonation is off. Is there something I am overlooking? Is there some kind of test I can do to narrow down the cause of this issue? The accompanying octave higher E seems to keep in tune. I remember John Hall discussing this kind of issue and claimed it was a string issue. Is it worthwhile to invest in that bridge made for Rickenbacker 12 strings?

I just wanted to get some feedback before I changed the strings.

[8mileshigher]

I understand some Ric 12-string owners tune their low E string a little flat.... but leave the octave string tuned natural. It sounds perfectly OK when you play a G chord or anything higher up the frets....

Some folks also tune the B strings a little bit flat too.... some might say theres no such thing as perfect intonation. One of those subjective things.

[antipodean]

Sadly, 12 strings + 6-saddle bridge = imperfect intonation.

However, the slightly imperfect intonation is a part of the 60's 12-string sound. If you find this intonation "feature" annoying, you can lob in a "12 saddle" bridge (actually a 10-saddle as the unison b and e strings use the same saddle as their twins). There are claims that the lower saddle mass of the 12-saddle bridge alters the tone so the sound isn't as chimey. I haven't been able to A/B the different bridges, but I'm more than happy with the sound of my 660/12 which uses the 12-saddle bridge.

[jimk]

Living up to my reputation as a contrarian here, my 360/12 string does just fine with its six saddle bridge. I admit to having to adjust the B string pair. But I have to do that on my six string acoustic when I play in D too; especially if the strings are starting to get a little too old.

Other than that, I haven't noticed any real difficulties. Maybe I just got lucky.
JimK

[egosheep]

Can't you file the six saddle bridge to have compensated saddles, and retain the tone benefits?

[teb]

I doubt it unless you want to make deeper saddles. I currently have both types on two different twelves and had two others with 12-saddle bridges (one original, one converted) in the past. On the current guitars, the first twelve came with six saddles and bugged the heck out of me until I had a 12-saddle bridge installed. It now plays nicely in tune, but the low E saddle is about 1/4" farther back than its octave's saddle after having them set with a Peterson strobe tuner. The other twelve with the six-saddle also seems to play quite well using the same string brands (RIC rounds, TI jazz flats) so I haven't messed with it. I'm not sure why this one is so much better than the other was, but on your guitar, I wouldn't hesitate to play with the location of that sixth saddle. You just might find a spot where the compromise sounds fine. As to tone or chime differences between the two types, I find them to be minor enough to be ignored. With the right strings and the right amp and equipment, you will certainly sound like a Rickenbacker twelve and have plenty of chime with either bridge. I think the wood itself in any particular guitar may have much more to do with some seeming to have a bit more chime factor than others and which block of wood you get is pretty much the luck of the draw. Tuning-wise, I tune my B strings so that the third fret D sounds right (which usually makes them just slightly flat on a tuner) and tune the Low E pairs so that the third fret low G sounds right on both E strings. If your six-saddle bridge is in its best possible position the primary Low E might be slightly flat and the octave may not be, but the combination seems to work pretty well for me.

[beatlefreak]

I just wanted to get some feedback before I changed the strings.

Actually, changing the string should be one of the first things you do - After you're sure a proper set up on the guitar is realized. Make sure your neck is absolutely straight, and the action is as low as you can get with no fret buzz. Then try a replacement string for that pesky low E. If it still won't intonate, you might try a slightly heavier or lighter gauge string in it's place, as different gauges have different intonation points.

[Janglyman]

This seems to be a hot button issue. I had major intonation issues on the G strings of my 360-12. The 12 saddle bridge worked wonders and I'm very happy with it. I'm also one of those guys who tunes the 12th string a little flat. I tune it so that the 3rd fret G is in tune with the paired open G's. My saddle also is about 1/4-1/2 inch farther back at the bridge. This condition is pretty easily fixed by a good set up.

[Johnny_Voodoo]

Thanks for everyone's valuable advice! I think I'm going to get one of those 12 saddle bridges and a set o' spurs for my boots.

[YukonCor55]

I've actually had very good luck with the 6 saddle bridge. The only issue I had with my 370/12 low E string pair was that the saddle spring was fully compressed and I ran out of travel (toward the tailpiece) before the string was fully intonated. I removed the saddle and spring, cut about 1/3 off the spring and put it all back together. That gave me the additional travel I needed to get the Low E and it's ocatve dead on.

[beatlefreak]

Newer RIC bridgeplates have slotted screwholes so the entire bridge assembly can be adjusted forward and backward (at least a little).