4001 Trussrod problem

[joxter74]

Hi everyone!
Got big problems with my trussrods on my 4001. I know this is a common thing on these basses.
Been trying just about every tool i've found, but nothing will work. The Ric original tool don't work either.
The truss-bolts presses down to the wood, so nothing fits underneath there, and there is no channels under the bolts in the wood either, it's just plain flat. Been to my local guitarrep, but he doesen't have time for it. Right, went to another guy. I live in Sweden, well, no problem. He can fix it. The price: somewhere between $1100 and 1400! (translated from swedish kronor) That's just a little bit to much for my wallet you know. Are there anyone from Sweden here who knows a great guitarrep who is just a bit cheaper?

Jocke

4001-74 Trussrods

[jps]

You can get that sorted for far less with a reputable repair person.

To start, you need to clamp the neck front to back to prevent the fingerboard from popping off the neck (with the strings removed). I use a small cam clamp from Stewart-MacDonald. You will need to use a flatblade screwdriver to get under the nuts and gently pry them up high enough to get the correct long handle 1/4" nut driver to grab the nuts and spin them off. The spacer bar is mangled beyond repair so a new one will have to be made, a simple job for someone who does metal work.

Do a search for truss rod repair, there is a lot of information in this forum about that.

[headbanger]

I had this same issue. You can do this work for yourself quite easily.

My work around was to find the smallest head 1/4" open end wrench I could and turned them a fraction at a time. After you get the nuts backed off a bit it's much easier to bend the ends and nuts up and off the last bit of thread.

You must be aware of how these rods work. Each rod is a length of 1/8" x 1/4" steel folded in half at the bottom of the neck. Take the pickguard off to see the bottom folded end of the rod from the neck pickup cavity. The two ends are at the top in the headstock cavity. One is threaded and the other cut off flat. The threaded ends of each rod go through throught the block. As the nut is tightened down on the block one half of the rod is stretched the other is compressed. This action makes the rods bow backward.

Because most "luthiers" don't understand or don't know that this is how they work what tends to happen is they get on the nut driver and screw them down as hard as they can trying to correct the neck. This is a big mistake. The top half of the rod will either buckle or twist inside the cavity or worse it will try to bow upward popping the fretboard off or cracking something somewhere.

From the look of the pic you have posted those nuts have been waaay overtightened. The block is crushed and the rods are twisted.
Remove all the strings and the nut. With the nut gone you get a clearer picture of what's going on.
Do the small head open end wrench thing as above. As the pressure comes off the block you will be able to bend the rod ends up. Remove the nuts then the block. You will then see the two halves of the rods clearly. Threaded portion on the bottom, plain end on the top.

This is where it get tricky.
Can you slide the rods back and forth? If yes, great, do the following.

Lay a piece of leather or heavy cloth over the front of the headstock to protect it. Slip it under the ends of the rods so all you can see is the rods themselves.
Pull each rod out one at a time. Depending on the era/year of the bass you may have to bow them upward away from the face of the headstock to get them out. This where a clamp comes in handy as JPS suggests for insurance to prevent the fretboard coming away from the neck. Again depending on the era/year of the bass this may not be a big issue.

IF THEY DON'T MOVE AT ALL OR ARE HARD TO GET OUT....

Get a pair of vice grip pliers and clip onto ONLY the TOP HALF OF THE ROD. The top half is the compression half of the rod. If it won't move it's likely become buckled or twisted or squashed. To get the rod out you must straighten it somewhat by pulling on it. A really bad rod will be hard to get out. It will be jammed in there. It may require one person pulling at the top and another person tapping on the bottom end through neck pickup cavity to push it out. With all this going on the CLAMP AT THE FIRST FRET to prevent the fretboard coming off IS A MUST.

Once they're out they're relatively easy to straighten in a vice. If the threads are ruined cut new ones with an 10/32 die or you can trim off 10-15mm if there's good thread further down the shaft.

You may need to make a new block from the looks of that one.

Coat the rods with vaseline of floor polish or something like this before you put them back. Also check and clean the cavities for gunk or glue residue.

[Wiker]

I had the same problem, but managed to unscrew the nuts with some pliers. My nuts were not excessively bent, and had not started to dig into the wood. However, I had to bend the nuts up just a little bit to get them clear from the wood during unscrewing. I put a screwdriver underneath the nut, some piece of wood on the headstock not to damage the finished, and bend up just a little bit. When I finally managed to get the nuts off, I found that they actually did not fit into the standard Rickenbacker truss rod wrench I had just bought (the nuts were a fraction too big).

I swapped out the old nuts, and used some bullet nuts instead:
http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Truss_rods/ ... d_Nut.html
These nuts use an Allen key to adjust. If they should bend down it will be easier unscrewing them with an Allen key than trying to fit a standard wrench. They are twice as long as the original nuts, have a rounded off end, and if they should bend down will rest on the headstock without digging into it as much the original sharp edged nuts. (However, if properly adjusted, as headbanger have described, the nuts should not bend down excessively.)
These nuts does not use metric Alley key, so a set of SAE key where also needed:
http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tools/Speci ... _Keys.html

If you need to cut new threads (or clean out the old once), you need a 10-32 die:
http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Truss_rods/ ... g_die.html

BTW: This may be of interest:
http://www.tseint.com/4001project/history.html

[headbanger]

Thanks for correcting me on the die size Geir, I've edited my post to reflect.

BTW: This may be of interest:
http://www.tseint.com/4001project/history.html

This should be a sticky somewhere

[joxter74]

Thanx for your time all. I now decided to do the job myself, especially After Christopher Deppe's great documentation of hi work. Been doing all work on my strats and other peoples guitars as well, for some 17 years now. I do everything but fret jobs (i leave that to the guy's that knows what they are doing (hopefully)
So now i need to have a steelbar made up (best way would to get the old damaged one out i suppose, and use it as a guider.)
I need to buy two or three clamps to hold the fretboard in place. Thanx to Gerry Fergusson! and this forum, I've totally would not even think of clamping up the neck.
Have a little question: If i need to cut of a little bit on the rods, how does that effect the other end of the neck? Is the end of the truss attached to anything or just loose in the chamber? That's the main question now..
The bass is an 1974 4001, putting in a headstock pic just for fun

4001-1974-Head

Thanx for all help, U guys ROCK

[jps]

Don't worry about cutting an inch or so off the truss rods, they will still work just fine. They are not attached to anything at the body end of the neck, just floating free.

The spacer bar is aluminum, but I suggest you make it out of brass and have it fit fairly snug in the cavity; you can also make it a bit thicker to minimize it rotating down, which is how the nuts chew in to the wood at the bottom.

[johnallg]

Cut them off to start clean, but remember to make the upper one shorter.

This thread should be a sticky. Best dissertation on the subject I've seen. That would make the linked info by Christopher Deppe part of it too, as long as he supports his site.

[s4001]

Excellent information. I don't have the guts to do it myself, though.

[FretlessOnly]

Yes, good info indeed. One more thing, Jocke: Once you've repaired and re-installed the rods, make sure you do not use the rods themselves to straighten the neck (or the previously mentioned damage to the fingerboard, etc. may result). The neck should be put into the desired position using hand pressure on the headstock. Then, use the adjustment tool to take up the slack in the rods. This is discussed several places on this site, I just thought it fit at the end of the discussion.

[joxter74]

Found a piece of brass that should work fine for the block. Involved my father in the project to (hes an old metallworker and has a milling machine in the garage.) I will document the whole process and put up a picture here when it's finished. I'm exited about this now, but it's a bit scarry in a nice way. Thanx again for all info.

[jamespaul71]

does anybody make the brass blocks for sale? Would you have to have measurements and the bass there to make a block?

[FretlessOnly]

RIC sells the spacer (Item # 06119 - not in brass), which suggests that the piece is fairly uniform in size. However, my experience in looking in the truss rod access cavity of a few basses is that this "behind the curtain" area is not necessarily cut exactly the same from bass to bass, so some wood tweaking might be necessary in some cases (or vice versa).

So, having the original would be a good idea, and the bass itself wouldn't hurt (someone like Paul might prove me wrong here). I don't know of anyone who makes a brass version, but it would appear to be a simple task for someone with experience in metal working and the correct tools.

[jps]

RIC sells the spacer (Item # 06119 - not in brass), which suggests that the piece is fairly uniform in size.

That spacer is for the current truss rod design and is not suitable for a 4001.

[FretlessOnly]

Ah, good point; thanks for the correction. I knew the rods were different, but I thought that the adjustment ends were basically the same.