Does refinishing affect value?

[Kopfjaeger]

First off I don't mean to offend anyone or open up a can of worms but I have a question regarding refinished guitars. I've been a collector of quite a few things over the years and in certain collecting fields, if an item was enhanced or changed from the way it was initially offered, it normally affected the value of the item. now I realize there are two schools of thought on the subject. On the one hand, if the initial item was improved and made better the price may go up. On the other hand if the original item was altered from it's stock or as made condition, value declined. There seems to be a fine line that if crossed, the original item looked as though it was attempting to appear to be something it was never intended to be and it's collect-ability value was much less than if it had remained in original condition.

Let me use the analogy of 1960 era muscle cars. A detained restoration of a 1968 Dodge Charger with a 383 4 bbl carb that remained faithful to the original build sheet of the vehicle down to the exact same color paint and options, normally commands a very respectable price.

Now take that same Charger and restore it by adding a non factory paint job, aftermarket stereo with 50 disc cd changer and a ton of chrome under the hood and while you have made the vehicl ebetter, it's collectability value has deteriorated slightly do to the modifications.

Now for the extreme example. The same 68 Charger, gets re-badged as an RT, the 383 is swapped out for a Hemi, and recaro race seats with an 8 point roll cage is installed. Once again the upgrades have improved the vehicle but now it poses as an RT which it never was. The value of the car become a huge debate but one thing is for sure, it will never come anywhere the value of an original factory equipped Hemi vehicle. Collector Purists will call it a frankenstein and what to tar and feather you for the modifications. Street rodders may accept it but it will always be controversial.

OK, here is where the Rickenbacker tie in comes in. I'm looking to purchase a vintage early 1970's 4001. While I'm not looking for a true collectors item, per se, I worry about the future value of a bass that has been refinished, possibly completely different from what it was out of the factory. Does the addition of Ric parts that may not be 100% accurate to the bass negatively affect it's value as well?

Does changing the color and adding of pats negatively affect it's collector value?? I really donpt know the answer and I'm looking for a bit of guidance here.

Like I said, ho disrespect to any one having such a bass but in the sort of collecting that i have been involved with cleaning the age patina off an item is grounds for castration and ridicule. I'm not sure if the same hold true in vintage guitars.

I look forward to your replies.

Sepp

[collin]

Yes.

[Malchik]

YES! Even if your finish is chipped and checked, keep it.

[sys700]

Depends. What value is a car that is rusted out? Or a Rick that needs a neck reset?

[collin]

If your guitar has original paint and is functional, it will nearly always be worth more than a refin (yes, even a pro, correct refin).

Cars and guitars are a good comparison, but there is a big difference---guitars can be beat up, yet functional....when a car is beat up, rusty, missing paint, not running...it's unusable. The biggest loss with cars is when people customize them instead of factory restorations. A personalized car isn't designed to appeal to a broad audience, limiting its market.

In some rare cases (Les Paul goldtop-to-Burst conversions come to mind), a customized guitar can be worth more than it's stock original state, typically when they are replicas of much more expensive, rarer guitars, but a straight, stock refin typically takes about 40% or more off the price of an original paint example.

[teb]

I think it depends on who you're trying to sell it to. Assuming that it's not some sort of special historic individual guitar, there are people who would be willing to pay more for a really good refin than a distressed original finish. I'm one of them. I just don't see much magic in a guitar that somebody else wore the paint off of. I actually play mine a lot, but take good care of them and want them to look like it. None of my Rickenbackers will ever be gems for some collector, because they've been modified. Instead, they will go to players who can appreciate them as instruments. Even so, I never, ever lose money buying and selling Rickenbackers, so I don't worry about it. I just wish I still had the 1958 Capri that I bought in 1974 for $200. I'd have that puppy boxed up and on its way to Paul for a refin in a heartbeat.

[antipodean]

If a guitar or bass is at all "collectible" then a refin will reduce its value, as collectors are all about "originality". The impact of a refin on the value of a non-collectible bass or guitar is much more ambiguous - I believe a cool Paul W refin on a mid-70s standard-colour 4001 will actually enhance the value of the bass. If the bass was an early '73, the impact of a great refin will depend upon the condition of the bass - a hacked up jetglo bass may be worth more after a refin. A worn BG or AZG is likely to drop in value with a refin. For pre '73 4001s, it is almost certain that a refin will reduce the value - the earlier the bass the more drastic the effect, though condition considerations will still have an impact upon the magnitude of the effect.

[sys700]

What do you mean by value? Value is subjective. There is value to me as a player. There is value to me as a collector. There is the value to other players. There is the value to the collectors who store the guitars away and never play them. There is the overall value of the guitar. I assume you are referring to the latter?

I've told this story before, but I had two Rickenbacker 12's from 66. One was nearly pristine, great action, great playability, but I didn't like the tone, and couldn't improve it no matter what I tried. I had another that sounded amazing, but was beat from having been played in a 60's band. When I asked on this forum which one I should keep, everyone seemed to find more "value" in the old beat up one that sounded better. It had the authentic tone I was after. So I sold the near mint one. Shortly after selling it, the great sounding guitar developed a neck problem requiring a full reset, which would require taking the back off the guitar (full refin). While I was at it I decided to have it turned into an OS model, which go for $10k plus if you can find them. Now some of you would say the guitar was more valuable with the original finish and original neck joint cracked. I beg to differ. I think the guitar was more valuable before the problem occurred, lost value once the neck joint broke, and will gain value (to me) now that it's refinished. And who knows? Someday there may be value attached to having a particular guitar refinished by a particular person. You just never know.

[Kopfjaeger]

Yeah, I knew the vehicle analogy was not a perfect fit but I think it assisted me with getting my thoughts across. Not perfectly but functional. As for my definition of value, I guess I'm talking monetary. Hey, I own a new 4003 that I love. Much like a car the second it rolls off the dealer lot if you go around the block and try to return in, you'll not get the same price back for it. Perhaps years down the line, my 2011 4003 may be worth more but I did nto purchase it to possibly turn a profit. I bought it to play and to enjoy.

The early 70's Rick I'm looking for needs to serve two purposes. it must contain a bit of "mojo" as well as retain some sort of collect-ability value. A bonus would be if the monetary value rises with the passage of years. I realize the term "mojo" is nebulous and just because an instrument is a certain amount of years old, it may or not contain that element. I realize it may take a few different instruments of a certain era to find that special one and my concern is that if I buy a refinished instrument looking for that certain feel or sound and it does not contain it, when I go to put it back on the market, I don't break even. I'm trying to avoid buying with emotion since that has never really served me well in the past..

To be clear, I'm looking to go into the hobby of collecting vintage Rickenbackers as a way to pad my portfolio but on the other hand, I certainly don't want to add instruments that are visually appealing but lose money if and when it comes time to part with them.

Sepp

[jingle_jangle]

Yep. Can 'O' Worms. I've written a few words on this topic, and I'd join the fray, except for that.

The short of it is that Ricks are "different", being (at least by Fender and Gibson standards) scarce. Rick players and collectors are a relatively small group. Many or most of them know each other personally or by reputation, and oftentimes Rickenbackers trade within the group, rather than crossing into the "outside world". This is more common, the older and rarer a Rickenbacker becomes--it morphs from being a musical product and tool into being an historical object of practical use.

That having been said, Ricks are still way undervalued compared to much more common Fenders and Gibsons of equivalent age. The guys who control the values are the bigger dealers, who appraise and buy low in order to sell higher. The line they created about a refinish losing half its value (minimum) works to their advantage by making it unnecessary to do individual valuations on restored guitars if they don't want to; in lower-priced instruments it's a volume business anyway with little wiggle room for special cases.

A pro-refinished Rick done with correct materials and technique should not lose its value. If it is a historic instrument or one with major celebrity connections, or one with nice patina, I'd leave it alone, but this isn't always a monetary value call. It can be because of the story that's being told.

I can say this: Do a BAD job restoring or refinishing, and you've destroyed the value of any guitar. But you're much more likely to see a pro-refinished Fender Strat lose half its value, than a pro-refinished Rick. And a well-done restoration of a $2K Rick is most likely to stabilize or increase its value.

[Kopfjaeger]

Paul,

Thank you for commenting. I was hoping not to create a controversy with my question, but I realized it could very well happen since I was asking for members to give opinions on what they believed to be the case. This always has the potential to go sideways and that was not my intent.

WOW! I realized the huge typo I made on my previous post. I meant to say I'm NOT looking to pad my retirement portfolio by buying vintage Ric's.

I do not, or at minimum, did not wish to appear that I was soley interested in making sure the investment in a refinished Ric would not lose value with time. I'd be lying if that concern did not partially factor into my concern.

I highly value your opinion. The work I have seen you accomplish on the instruments featured on this forum shows that you have both skill and passion for detail. There are many schools of though on the question i posed and I guess in the end I need to figure out what a refinish means to me and the value I place on it. While I am still unsure of what the value means to me at this time, one thing is pretty certain. I really have no business speculating what the market may do especially on a subject that i am still so new to. I think i need to make an informed decision and hope I choose wisely. With luck the instrument I choose will possess the "mojo" I have heard about and I'll be happy. if years down the line, i sell it and make a profit, then that is a bonus.

Thanks again.

Sepp

[sys700]

If you're buying for investment purposes, it's always wisest to buy the most mint, original, unmolested examples of anything, from cars to guitars to amps, etc, because a wider swath of the population is likely to pay the premium price these items demand. But most of these are sitting in collections somewhere or behind glass. And if you manage to track something down that is really rare and unmolested, you will probably pay a pretty penny for it, and it may decrease in value before it rises. And you won't want to take it out and play it for fear of putting a ding or scratch in it. There were a couple instances where I simply could not afford the entry price of a very rare example of a guitar, so a refinished guitar was valuable to me. If you're buying to play and keep, and you find value in a nice-sounding guitar that stays in tune and has great action, then close your eyes and if you like how it sounds and plays, then buy it.

Again, value is relative. Something that's not valuable to a dealer, may be very valuable to me. I bought a 59 Fender Jazzmaster for a steal last year, and it's the best guitar I've ever owned, yes, even better than my Rickenbackers. I will never sell this guitar! But a dealer would say that the finish isn't exactly to spec, so it's not as valuable as if it were left unmolested. I don't care since I bought it refinished for 1/3 the going rate. I also had a chance to buy a 1993 Rose Morris 12-string last year, but financially couldn't swing it. It wasn't all original, but that didn't sway me in the least, and if I had the cash today, I'd pay the $5k more that he was asking for that guitar over other unmolested examples that just didn't look as nice. And if I saw a refinished '65 Rose Morris 1993 for sale, and the refinish was done correctly, in order to correct an issue with the neck or binding, I'd jump all over that guitar since I know it will probably last a couple more decades at least. And I think a lot of people would. Whereas a dealer would probably prefer the instrument to stay broken in order to retain originality. Bottom line, if you find a buyer, you're investment has retained value.

[jingle_jangle]

Very well-said, Rod. I've posted lots about this. The best approach, as always is a common-sense one. The people I've met who do best at collecting (and players have to deal with the fact that collectors will generally determine market prices--and I'm merely observing, not taking sides!) have strong BS detectors and healthy egos. If something speaks to you, go for it and enjoy its tune. If only money or ego-gratification are your goals, you're part of the Bubble of BS.

[winston]

A great post Rod and one that I agree with 100%. I buy guitars to play. I am not a collector by strict definition..........my wife might argue to the contrary of course.

[rickenbrother]

I am not a collector by strict definition..........my wife might argue to the contrary of course.

Eh, don't argue with Penny!