To tube or not to tube, that's my question

[Kopfjaeger]

OK, here is a topic that is sure to raise a controversy. If it does, I want to apologize now and state for the record, that it was not my intention to do so.

OK, here goes. I've never owned an amplifier that uses tubes. My amps have been solid state. From the Acoustic brand bass head and cab I owned in the 80's to the Hartke I just sold and Orange Crush pix 100 watt I still own, they have all been solid state.

Over the past few months I've been pondering the purchase of a tube bass head. I've looked at Mesa Boogie as well as Orange. I currently own an Orange solid state combo amp and I like it. When I first began playing bass back in the late 1970's, only the experienced musicians had tube amps. At least that is how it seemed. When I purchased all the amps I've owned, I can't really recall any salesman offering any tube heads as options. I kinda thought they were "old technology" and being phased out. Well fast forward 30 years and it seems tube amps are more widely made and sold than I remember them being.

I'm leaning toward purchasing another Orange product but I seem to be stuck on either the AD200B Mk3, all tube head rated at 200w or the "Hybrid" Terror Bass head rated at 500w. The Terror Bass head has a solid state power section and the same all tube pre amp as the AD200B Mk3.

The idea of changing out tubes every so often is not really bothering me too much but I can see how it can be a pain in the neck and or fail at the worse time. On the AD200B, the head needs to be biased when you change tubes. Not so on the Terror Hybrid head. I'm also not afraid of biasing the head myself. I'm pretty damn handy and before I began arresting criminals for a living, I use to be an electrician and am very comfortable working with it. As long as I have instructions or a how to list, I'm sure I can handle the tube maintenance, although I'm also sure I'll complain about having to change tubes since I've never had to do it before.

OK, do I need a tube amp? No probably not but needing something has never really been a factor in counting out a purchase. I realize a 200W tube amp will most likely have more power than i will ever need. The same with a 500w Hybrid head. Oh, I'd plan on mating either head with a 4x10 cab rated at 600w at 8 ohms.

I'm not sure I'd ever have either head over 50% volume. Will this be a detriment to an all tube head? I've been told that tubes like to run a bit and sound and perform better at higher volume. Not sure if that's true or not?

The hybrid amp is much less expensive than the all tube head but price is not a factor here. I really don't want to get the wrong item or not have it reach it's full sound potential by keeping it at lower volume.

I don't tend to add any effects to my sound I just prefer to use an equalizer and gain. I'm primarily a rock and roll and heavy metal music player

Any suggestions or insight???

Sepp

[jps]

How loud does your band play? Heavy handed Neanderthal drummer?

The SS power section of the Terror will sound different than the tube output stage of the AD200B Mk 3; the latter will have a lot more distortion/character than the former when cranked. Preamp distortion is different sounding than power tube distortion; if you can, try and compare both at similar volume levels through the same cabinet. Neither one is "better" than the other, just different so you will gets lots of opinions here, just like with most other things. If you find that you do not need a tube output stage, some other amps worthy of investigation would be the Genz-Benz Streamliner 600/900, Aguilar Tone Hammer 500 (SS preamp, too-my favorite amp, at the moment) or DB750/751, or GK MB Fusion, for a few possibilities. For all tube, you can check out the Traynor YBA300, Reeves Custom 225/400, or Aguilar DB359 (second hand only, these days).

[kiramdear]

No reason not to have one if you get the chance. Fate may drop one in your lap one day and who knows, you may love them. But if you're happy with the status quo, then that's just fine, too.

[soundmasterg]

Most bass players these days like the portability and huge power at light weight options that solid state provides these days. They will often get something that has a tube in the preamp to add warmth, but most bass players don't go for all tube amps. They are heavy for their power rating when compared to solid state, and yes they do like to be up a bit to get the power tubes singing. Tube amps tend to "sound" louder than their solid state counterparts for any given wattage, and part of that is because they distort and add harmonics to the sound. A lot of people these days do not like the looser bottom end and the distortion and want the tight and punchy attack that a solid state amp can provide. On the other hand, the tube amps are warmer sounding and more touch responsive and have a harmonic richness that you just can't get from solid state. Since everyone hears differently, no one can really tell you what to get.

For myself, I have only ever had tube bass amps....several vintage Sunns, and I still have a 1968 Sunn 2000S head and cabinet; and a vintage Ampeg SVT head with a cabinet I had made that is an SVT clone cabinet. (The cab is actually for sale) As far as I am concerned, for my ears, the Sunn and old Ampeg B15N Portaflex amps have the best sound, while the SVT sounds great at high volumes and is hard to beat. The new Reeves stuff is very nice too. I appreciate the solid state bass amp sound and what it can do, but I haven't found one I like enough to buy yet.

The maintainence issue is overblown. I've had the same tubes in my SVT for hmmm...at least 15 years now. I gig here and there and used to jam a lot and the amp has seen plenty of use with those tubes. No failures yet. My old Sunn 200S had the same tubes in it with regular use for at least 15 years also. It costs a lot of money to retube when it is necessary, and there are certainly rules you need to observe when biasing, (especially safety ones) but don't let that scare you away from the wonderful sounds of tube amps.

Greg

[Kopfjaeger]

Thanks for the input and advice. I really did not expect to have a definitive answer posted here to sway me 100% in either direction. I am use to the 100% maintenance free aspect of solid state over tube. I am bolstered by hearing 15+ year of life with no tube replacing.

For those that own tube amps, is it possible to bias them yourself?? If it's a case of checking voltage at a certain location and turning a screw, I'm more than capable of accomplishing that. I do live in the NYC area so finding a qualified tech to service a tube amp is not going to be a problem but I like to tinker, it makes me feel more connected with my stuff! It's like when my computer has an issue. I'm absolutely clueless to how computers work and how to remedy issues with them, even though I use them every day at work and at home. I find it madding that I feel helpless when computer issues arise. My first instinct is to throw the tower out of the second floor window of my home!! For some unexplained reason, i lost a report at work and I snapped the keyboard in half across the edge of the desk. Yup, I owed the department a new keyboard but it felt so good at the time!! Yeah, I may have some anger management issues going on here.

I have heard great things about Traynor and of course GB. I own a 100w Orange combo amp that I purchased because I was not 100% happy with the sound from the 250w Hartke Hydrive I had. The day I plugged the Orange in and got the settings where I wanted them, I never again plugged into the Hartke. The 100w Orange is a great solo practice amp but that's it. It's just too small. I've also owned nothing but 15 inch speakers in any cabinet I have owned. I was always under the impression 15 inch speakers were optimal for bass. Since getting back into playing seriously, it seems that multiple 10 inch speakers is where it's at, hence my quest for a 4x10 cab.

So it seems it's all about the tone I'm looking to create. I do like a bit of gain to roughen things up a little so a completely pure warm sound is not what I'm aiming for although it would be nice to be diverse. I'm sure I could be happy with either head. It's gong to come down to how easy the tube head is to maintain over the hybrid and how much potential will the tube amp have at the volume I normally play at.

I wish one dealer in the area had them both side by side to compare. I'm able to find one in one place and the other at another place so a true side by side is not happening.
It's only money right?? I'll take both! Nah, that's not going to happen, it's one or the other so I got to get this right the first time.

Sepp

[fatcat]

Adjusting bias is an issue if you replace the power tubes;you need to get matched sets and if you buy the same brand,with the same rating number, then its plug and play.
The small signal tubes don't need bias adjustments and can be replaced without any fuss.
As Greg stated, good quality tubes can last a long time, F.I. my Fender 400 P.S. has had the same tubes for over 30 years.
It had a lot of use in the past, and gets warmed up weekly or bi-weekly now.It's just too heavy to lug around now,since SS amps are much lighter.

[Kopfjaeger]

OK, I'm going all tube! After speaking to many and taking the advice of those here, I'm going totally tube. I looked in to Traynor and nice prices but a bit to powerful. If 200w is loud, 300w will be off the hook. I looked a Mesa but very pricy and still the minimum was 300w for the m3. The m6 and m9 were more powerful and the m9 I felt had way too many bells and whistles. I got a pretty good deal on the Orange rig. $210. off the web price, no tax, and free shipping. I'll have it in two days! I really liked the 100w solid state combo I have and I got to test drive the Ad200bmk3 and I did like it very much.

Checked into biasing and amp and it's a piece of cake, just don't touch the capacitor bank! In reality, I doubt it will be an issue but if I need to do it, I know I'll be able to handle it. I'll post more after I've set it up and ran through it a bit.

Sepp

[Kopfjaeger]

The Orange has landed, and it does not disappoint! The sound is fuller and more dense than the 250w Hartke solid state amp I just got rid of. The controls are spartan on the Orange but I like that. I never understood a quarter of the controls on the Hartke.

As for the sound, I've never owned a 4x10 cabinet before so I'm not sure if the sound quality is more the cab or the all tube head. What ever it is, I like it a lot!! The head is very powerful. House rumbling powerful! I mean low growl make the poured concrete foundation rumble powerful! I remember my old Acoustic head and 15 single inch cab was loud but this is a different deeper type of power.

Very happy! Merry Christmas to me!!

Sepp

[jps]

Congrats, Sepp!

I have found that real, all tube amps tend to have a more subterranean bottom end, which is probably what you hear/feel. I think this is due to them not having any kind of high-pass filter to prevent subsonics from getting to the speakers. I have certainly noticed this with both my early '70s Princeton Reverb Amp and 1962 Concert Amp; it is not necessary to be high powered, it's all about tone!

[johnallg]

Congrats, Sepp. If you want to get a handle on the 4 x 10 cab's sound, put the Hartke, which you are familiar with, through it so you can get a feel for the sound of the cab.

[Kopfjaeger]

Congrats, Sepp. If you want to get a handle on the 4 x 10 cab's sound, put the Hartke, which you are familiar with, through it so you can get a feel for the sound of the cab.

John, No can do. I sold the Hartke rig to help pave the way for this acquisition.

I knew the weight of both pieces before it arrived but the heft of the head still surprised me! At nearly 55lbs, it almost weighs as much as the cabinet! I think the UPS driver nearly dropped a nut! Actually, his young assistant hoisted it off the truck and into my house. He plays in a band and owns a Mesa Boogie rig and was thrilled to bring it into my house and check out my Rickenbacker's.

Sepp

[soundmasterg]

Just be very careful if you ever get around to biasing the power tubes yourself. Many amps require opening the chassis up to get the plate voltage off the power tubes, and anytime you open the chassis up, anything you touch in there can possibly shock you and kill you. If you get the right bias probe, then you won't need to open the chassis to set the bias. Weber used to make some that worked well but they stopped production on them. Others make good bias probes but I am not sure of which one to recommend without investigating them, and I don't have the time for that these days. Just be very careful when/if you get around to setting the bias. It is the same idea as setting the idle on your car engine....if you set it too high the engine burns itself up. If you set it too low, then engine won't want to run or perform very well. Tubes are the same, but since they use high voltages, they can be dangerous. Be safe!!

Enjoy the amp!

Greg

[Kopfjaeger]

Greg,

Thanks for the tip. I mean that! I did a You Tube search and there were quite a few videos about amp/tube biasing. One was of a tech getting shocked after discharging a capacitor. Of course I had to watch that one! I use to be an industrial electrician before I became a cop and I've been shocked a few times by some rather high voltages. Yes, that does explain a lot, doesn't it! It's not something I looked forward to then and it's certainly not something I look forward to now. The Orange has no ports or adjustment screws for biasing on the exterior so I'll have to open the back and most likely remove the chassis to bias it.

One of the videos shows the tech with a tool that had the tube fit into a socket then the socket went into the chassis. There were 4 ports for 4 of these sockets and a switch to select each one. Two ports were in the tool for your multimeter. I thought that was pretty neat. I found one on ebay with a multi meter built in. I'll have to look for the probe type you mentioned. Are they as accurate?

I'm pretty inquisitive by nature so I'm fighting back the urge to open her up and take a peek inside to see what is what. I keep telling myself, it's brand new and there is no good reason to take it apart. So far that is keeping me out of there!

Sepp

[fatcat]

Wait for the warranty to expire before working on it.
After that, have a go at it.

[Kopfjaeger]

Thanks Don, will do. Tubes are covered for 90 days and since I registered the product, I got an additional year under warranty on the rest of it (total of 2). I'm interested to see who works on their tube amps themselves and what experiences they have had while doing that. I'll post another thread asking that question. Thanks to all! for the support!

Sepp