The NJ Butcher

[strummersteve]

I just read a post about this guy who sells butchered Rickenbacker's (and other's as well) selling a stolen bass body on ebay. What is up with this guy and why is he allowed to sell stolen items? . Also is this guy known to sell stolen items or is he an honest seller that just butchers guitars?
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[DriftSpace]

Do you mean "Gibson Dependable"?
There are many threads which mention this "Jersey Butcher," including this one: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=411699&hilit=gibson+dependable

[Ashgray]

Just a word of caution Steven - whilst many of us here find the New Jersey Butcher's actions deplorable, there's nothing necessarily illegal in what he does.

We simply do not know whether he was aware that his particular bass was stolen when he obtained it and parted it out. In some countries, making direct allegations of theft that cannot be substantiated amounts to libel (which in itself is against the law) - irrespective of what we might feel. The principles of justice are that someone is innocent until proven guilty.

I'm just playing "devil's advocate" here and certainly don't agree with the NJB's usual strategy for making more money from cannibalising the parts than from selling the whole instrument, thereby ruining a perfectly good vintage instrument! However, I do think that we should be careful in what we say on a public forum if it steps over the threshold of something we personally disagree with to outright allegations of theft....

Ash

[xpitt]

Just a word of caution Steven - whilst many of us here find the Jersey Butcher's actions deplorable, there's nothing necessarily illegal in what he does.

We simply do not know whether he was aware that his particular bass was stolen when he obtained it and parted it out. In some countries, making direct allegations of this sort amounts to libel (which in itself is against the law) - irrespective of what we might feel, and the principles of justice are that someone is innocent until proven guilty.

I'm just playing "devil's advocate" here and certainly don't agree with the JB's usual strategy for making more money from cannibalising the parts than from selling the whole instrument, thereby ruining a perfectly good vintage instrument! However, I do think that we should be careful in what we say on a public forum if it steps over the threshold of something we personally disagree with to outright allegations of theft....

Ash

Well said.

[strummersteve]

Thanks for the advice. I was just reading other posts and was simply asking a question, not accusing anybody of anything. On the good side I noticed that JB does strip down guitars and parts them out and that is how he earns his living. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. In fact that is one way that we can get needed parts for our instruments that would be hard to find. I believe that JB had no knowledge of any wrong doing and is an honest seller. In fact if I needed a part that was hard to find I would purchase the part from him. Whether or not we agree about parting out instruments, this is how he earns an honest living. I guess that in some cases, the sum of the parts are worth more than the whole.

[jps]

The principles of justice are that someone is innocent until proven guilty.

That changed sometime in late 2001 in the US.

[gibsonlp]

Welcome Steven.
Other members have already expressed their concern from suggesting that gibsondependable are doing anything illegal so there is no need for me to jump on the wagon.
On another topic:

We would appreciate it if you could please use standard easy-on-the-eyes fonts in your posts. Using large/colorful/all caps fonts looks as if you are shouting.

Thank you

[strummersteve]

Welcome Steven.

On another topic:

We would appreciate it if you could please use standard easy-on-the-eyes fonts in your posts. Using large/colorful/all caps fonts looks as if you are shouting.

Thank you

I did not realize that the appearance large fonts and color looks like I an shouting. That was never my intention. Thanks for pointing that out to me.

[collin]

Steven, I actually get slightly angry at the thought of calling this guy's practices an "honest living" and I implore you to think about this a little more.

Maybe it's a matter do semantics, but to me an honest living means putting a full day of real work. It means investing years of your life in hard work and education, becoming as skilled as possible in doing something meaningful. Something of value to the public.

To me, an "honest living" doesn't mean exploiting an unfortunate loophole in the guitar parts market for a nominal financial gain. If you add up most of his auctions, his profit is often incredibly slim. Definitely not worth permanently splitting up a guitar, IMO.

What kind of message does parting these out send to the people that DO make an honest living in building these fine instruments? I find it incredibly disrespectful.

It's unfortunate that these guitars are worth more dead than alive (that's a fail of the market), so I do understand why he does this – but I have a serious problem with glorifying it as an "honest living."

[gibsonlp]

I agree that most of us, if not all think that this is bad practice.
I wouldn't be friends with someone who can tear up guitars and sell them as spare parts.
On the other hand - when you take a step back and look at the whole picture - it is legal, there are buyers, and this is a free market.

The only place where I think it is actually fishy is selling stolen goods (even unintentionally) like the one mentioned here:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=378085

It is almost impossible to trace it back now, this means that in a way - his practice is aiding and abetting, even if he doesn't do it intentionally.

[jps]

Guitar chop shop.

[strummersteve]

Steven, I actually get slightly angry at the thought of calling this guy's practices an "honest living" and I implore you to think about this a little more.

It's unfortunate that these guitars are worth more dead than alive (that's a fail of the market), so I do understand why he does this – but I have a serious problem with glorifying it as an "honest living."

I am thinking about this a bit more. By using the word "honest" I simply meant that he is not breaking any laws. I also feel that a perfectly good guitar should not br butchered for the sum of its parts. I also checked out the pricing of JB's parts and found that they are more expensive than purchasing them directly from Rickenbacker.
From now going forward I will think things through prior to posting.
I do recognize good advice when I see it and it is greatly appreciated.

[Ashgray]

What is up with this guy and why is he allowed to sell stolen items?.

By using the word "honest" I simply meant that he is not breaking any laws.

Some good advice would be not digging a deeper hole for yourself - there's a clear change of position in your two statements...

Ash

[strummersteve]

there's a clear change of position in your two statements...
Ash

That will happen sometimes whee one reacts first and then takes the time to think things through. I guess that I would not be a good politician.

[Ashgray]

I dunno - most UK politician's are like that!

Ash