4003 setup troubles (truss rod not responding, action bad)

[blackstarNL]

Hi folks,

New Rick 4003 owner here. Just bought a 2011 second-hand, but it hadn't been used. Still had the stickers on it.

I apologize if this has been dealt with before, but I've been searching the forum and I can't seem to find an answer to my problem.

I've been trying to set up the bass but I am running into an issue where, on the treble-side of the neck, there is not enough relief. (I can't fit a .010 (.254mm) feeler gauge in there).

The truss rod on that side has been slackened off, and I have let it sit for 3-4 days, but I can't seem to get the string tension to pull any more relief into the neck on that side.

1.Are Rick basses OK to be set up even straighter than this? I am not getting any fret buzz, but it does concern me that the neck is not responding to having that truss rod slackened all the way off.

2. Is it recommended to slacken both rods, let the bass sit for a few days while the strings pull in some relief, and then start over?

3. On top of all of this, I have the action as low as it can go, but I am still getting measurements of 2.25mm (0.088 inches) on the treble side, which is a little high. Anyone have any thoughts on this?

Thanks in advance for your time and consideration!

[Dirk]

Sorry I'm only experienced with vintage Rick setups, but I'm sure someone with modern truss rods will chime in.

Only 3 places action comes into play,
Truss rods control the bowing effect over the whole neck length.
Bridge adjustment, 2 adjusters set the string heights.
The nut usually won't be the issue, but it's worth looking at if replaced or modified.

Theoretically you should be able to use the vintage procedure for resetting the truss rods.
Loosen both the rod nuts.
Clamp the body down, and of course make sure you have clamp pads or a piece of wood to prevent clamping damage.
Use another clamp at the headstock end and let the clamp pull the neck/action to where you need it.
Tighten the rods, and you're back in business.

And last I guess I have to say if any of this seems beyond your abilities, I'd suggest taking the bass to a local qualified tech.
You want to ask if they are experienced with Rick setups first.

Good luck,
all efforts will be worth it in the long run. Welcome to the Rick family.
Dirk

[blackstarNL]

Thanks for your help, Dirk! I'd like to avoid the clamping method if I have to - it's something I have never done. Hopefully someone will know whether or not the truss rods on the new Ricks can be "reset" without the clamping method. If I do have to do it, I'll definitely seek out a more experienced tech, like you said.

[maxwell]

I don't own a Rick bass guitar, so here is a general thought / my two cents....

Forget the relief - increasing it will only increase (heighten) the action, which you say is too high already. Snug up that loose nut a little just to keep the truss rod from possibly rattling. Rick necks in general, from what I understand, work best when they are straight (little or no relief).

Your real problem is with the INABILITY to lower the action. If your bridge is adjusted down as far as it can go, well, I don't know.... Check string clearance at the nut (the previous post alluded to all this). There must be basic info on typical string clearance at the first fret. You or a tech can file (adjust) the string depth(s) of the nut if this is indicated by a higher than normal string clearance. But a large adjustment will have to come from the bridge end somehow.

Search this forum for posts regarding high action; there must be some.... (You can check the RIC forums, also.)

OK, I just checked the bridge at the RIC Boutique:
http://boutique.rickenbacker.com/BRIDGE ... p_740.html

I'd say your best (only?) option is to deepen the string grooves of the individual saddles, slowly and carefully, checking progress frequently (small triangular hand file, then polish). If you screw a saddle or two up, I'm pretty sure you can buy individual saddles. That's all I have, and I'm not a Bass Man (but there are some good ones here... wait for them). Good luck. (I know these things can be frustrating.)

[blackstarNL]

Thanks maxwell!

You're right - increasing the relief won't help my action problem. I guess I just want everything to function properly and was wondering if people had success slackening the rods, letting strings bow the neck, and then retightening to ensure both rods are functioning. I've tightened that loose rod just enough so that it won't rattle.

You make a good point about the height at the nut - I didn't think to check it. I assumed that it would be set well from the factory, but obviously something isn't working here. Will check the nut.

Another good point about the saddle. Some filing has been done on it already from what I can tell, but that's another option I can look into.

The funny thing with the action height problem is that it is measuring high at the 12th fret with the saddle as low as it can go, but it still does have some buzz above fret 14.

Maybe shooting for 010 relief on the neck is actually still not that straight and I could go straighter?

[blackstarNL]

Turns out the action at the nut for the G string is high - 1.25 mm

[maxwell]

I can't offer much else.... The saddles are notched at the factory, to stabilize the strings and perhaps to slightly position them so that they are positioned optimally over the fretboard. If you buy new saddles, or a new bridge, the saddles should be notched, and you will have to do the notching on your own, as noted on RIC's description of the bridge (link above). Here's the link for an individual saddle, should you have the need to get a replacement (also un-notched):

http://boutique.rickenbacker.com/SADDLE ... p_538.html

[jps]

Turns out the action at the nut for the G string is high - 1.25 mm

Yep, the nut slot height plays a major role in setting up a stringed instrument to one's own preferences.

[rictified]

Put some high tension strings on it and let it sit. I once bought a 4001 with a perfectly flat neck and no matter what I did with the truss rods it wouldn't budge, couldn't put any relief in it. I put some heavy strings and let it sit for a while (forgot how long) but they gradually put a little relief in the neck and I was able to put normal strings on it after that. Wood has a memory and although it's fairly easy to gradually take relief out of a neck its not so easy to put it back in sometimes especially if it's been like that for a long time.

[blackstarNL]

I can't offer much else.... The saddles are notched at the factory, to stabilize the strings and perhaps to slightly position them so that they are positioned optimally over the fretboard. If you buy new saddles, or a new bridge, the saddles should be notched, and you will have to do the notching on your own, as noted on RIC's description of the bridge (link above). Here's the link for an individual saddle, should you have the need to get a replacement (also un-notched):

http://boutique.rickenbacker.com/SADDLE ... p_538.html

Thanks maxwell!

[blackstarNL]

Turns out the action at the nut for the G string is high - 1.25 mm

Yep, the nut slot height plays a major role in setting up a stringed instrument to one's own preferences.

Sigh. It's too bad proper nut files are so damn pricey.

[blackstarNL]

Put some high tension strings on it and let it sit. I once bought a 4001 with a perfectly flat neck and no matter what I did with the truss rods it wouldn't budge, couldn't put any relief in it. I put some heavy strings and let it sit for a while (forgot how long) but they gradually put a little relief in the neck and I was able to put normal strings on it after that. Wood has a memory and although it's fairly easy to gradually take relief out of a neck its not so easy to put it back in sometimes especially if it's been like that for a long time.

I was wondering if this was a possibility. I think this may be what I have to do for the relief problems. Thanks rictified!

[Dirk]

Well you only need 4 nut files for bass, and it's certainly cheaper then paying someone else to do it for you.
Actually a single small tapered round file could work, just take your time.

Still not sure why you aren't willing to try a clamp, seems more controlled and efficient than putting heavy strings hoping it will eventually come back.

Unless you go crazy with the clamps it's very safe, wood moves all the time with the seasons and moisture content.

Put the bass on a table, hold the body with 1 hand, you will be able to move the headstock into position quite easily with the other hand manually.

Good luck,
Dirk

[blackstarNL]

Well you only need 4 nut files for bass, and it's certainly cheaper then paying someone else to do it for you.
Actually a single small tapered round file could work, just take your time.

Still not sure why you aren't willing to try a clamp, seems more controlled and efficient than putting heavy strings hoping it will eventually come back.

Unless you go crazy with the clamps it's very safe, wood moves all the time with the seasons and moisture content.

Put the bass on a table, hold the body with 1 hand, you will be able to move the headstock into position quite easily with the other hand manually.

Good luck,
Dirk

True, but they are pretty difficult to get your hands on up here in rural Canada. And I can't seem to find any with the gauges to match Rick string sizes (with the A and D being different). And to make matters worse, I'll have to order from the US and the exchange rate is pretty bad right now. So, I am looking at probably $130-$140.

With regards to the clamp thing, I am a little hesitant because I haven't done it before and don't have the proper equipment or space at the moment. Maybe I will try using the hand method you mentioned. If you are holding the bass down with one hand, and positioning the neck with the proper relief with the other, how do you then tighten the truss rods while ensuring you keep the neck in place?

[maxwell]

Take a look at this. Page 5 addresses neck adjustment.

RIC "Guitar and Bass, Care & Maintenance Manual"

http://www.rickenbacker.com/pdfs/manual.pdf

I forget how I did this once (I was unsuccessful...). I must have used some sort of clamps to anchor the body. Does Canada have Harbor Freight stores? The "big box" stores sell these, too, of course; more expensive, but maybe better quality. For anchoring the body, a couple of these cheap clamps would work fine, since the clamp jaws would have to open pretty wide to accommodate the guitar body, the edge of the table or bench you're working on, towels or other protective cloth over & under the guitar body, and some wood or something hard to place between the towel/cloth on the face of the guitar and the contact point of the clamp.

PPS - There must be room/space to allow the neck to flex downward a little. I seem to recall positioning the rear edge of the guitar body at the edge of a table, and then using a paperback book (one-half inch or so) near the body-neck junction in order to have the guitar neck rise upward providing space under it. Once all positioning is done, clamp down/anchor the guitar body. Use a straight edge over the frets of the entire neck in order to examine its current degree of relief. Flex/push down on the neck near the nut (I would NOT push on the headstock). While holding the neck down Just A Little, snug up the nuts; you will get a hint of how successful your adjustment is when you snug up the nuts while flexing the neck: if the nuts move/rotate/tighten, then you've accomplished some straightening as you take up the slack in the now straighter truss rods. Check/compare with your straight edge with your pre-adjustment assessment. Repeat. I suppose waiting a couple of days for the first adjustment to "take" /"settle in" (semi-permanent deformation of the neck) before doing a second adjustment; depends on the degree of change from the first adjustment/if zero, try again immediately. This is how I would approach it, but someone else may suggest an alternative method. These are expensive guitars, and you can't be too careful. Good luck.

https://www.harborfreight.com/hand-tool ... lamps.html

I use these for other things. The 6-inch one by Pittsburgh would probably open wide enough, but the 12-inch might come in handy for something else in the future, and may be a safer bet since it will accommodate a much greater depth/thickness. These are just for holding/simple anchoring, not compressing--the C-type/screw type clamp would be more suitable for this (for like trying to straighten a neck, etc.).

PS - OK, there are no Harbor Freight stores in Canada.... Leaving the link so you can better evaluate my suggested clamp.

3rd PS - I didn’t have clamps all those years ago when I tried to do the old fashioned method of neck adjustment. I think I just stacked / leaned some heavy books on the end of the body....