Paints for refinishing

anndra · Post by **anndra** » Fri Oct 15, 2004 3:43 am

Hi guys - I've decided to have my Ric 4001s refinished so it goes from this

and ends up close to this

I already have the toaster pup and vintage controls and hopefully Dane will furnish me with a mirrored pickguard so it's just the paint-job to finalise.

I'm still unsure which luthier to have the work done by - not least because of apparently conflicting information about which paints to use.

Nitro-cellulose appears to be prone to yellowing over time, but acrylic paint less so. Polyester paint was the one mentioned to me to be the best bet for staying white, but I was told to be aware it might considerably effect the tonal qualities of the bass. It wasn't suggested it would make the bass sound bad, just different in character. Would I be correct to assume the variance wouldn't kill the classic Ric tones I currently get?

Andrew Winter - who owns the gorgeous white creation - let me know that his hasn't faded at all and I'm keen for that to be the case with my own.

Also, I'm really struggling to get the tone knobs off the instrument to replace them with the vintage style I have on my other Rics - any suggestions?

Thanks in advance for any guidance on offer.

anndra · Post by **anndra** » Fri Oct 15, 2004 3:58 am

PS - and whilst I'm asking for help...

My 2004 mapleglo 4003 has started to resonate/buzz whenever I hit D on the fifth fret or it's octaved D on the seventh fret.

I'm not sure what it is that's resonating, but it's driving me to distraction.

rickfan60 · Post by **rickfan60** » Fri Oct 15, 2004 5:55 am

From what I have been able to gather, finishes are complex and a lot more than just paint. The clear coat is probably what you are talking about. Nitro is beautful and is said to be easy to repair but is very fragile and can absorb water over time. Weather checking is not unusual. Polys are more durable and appear to be the most common these days. Both nitro and poly can be applied using inexpensive equipment. RIC uses a complex varnish that, apparently, requires specialized equipment and techniques. Mixing of the components requires a fair amount of precision and skill. IMHO RIC finishes are among the best in the industry and always have been. JH has said that modern finishes are less likely to yellow over time. I assume he meant polys too. Unless you can find someone who works with catalyzed varnishes, you will most likely end up with a poly finish.

Here is one thing you can try. Mute the strings with your right hand by grabing near the body end of the neck then use palm of your left hand to lightly strike up and down the back of the neck. Listen for rattles. If you hear one, it is likely to be one or both truss rods. RIC wraps them but they can still rattle when loose. Just snug the rods slightly until the rattle stops.

anndra · Post by **anndra** » Fri Oct 15, 2004 8:27 am

Thanks very much for the advice, Ted.

I've just spent an hour or so with a professional painter - he paints everything from yachts to airbrish jobs on motorcycles and helmets - and I'm totally baffled by the amount of information he offered. But, he absolutely convinced me with his knowledge of paint and associated technologies that he's the man for the job. The fact he's done many guitars before helped of course!

Anyways, he suggested that I use acrylic urethane paint from an American supplier for it's 'hardness' of finish and it's likelihood of staying white. He's got all the equipment in his workshop and will finish it with lacquer to protect the finish and enhance the finish.

And thanks also for the tip on the buzz/resonance, but if it's a truss job adjustment then I'll take it to the guy who normally sets up my basses.

Having once destroyed an old Yamaha guitar in an attempt to repair it I simply have no faith in my ability with this type of thing.

aceonbass · Post by **aceonbass** » Fri Oct 15, 2004 8:44 am

Anndra...to remove the control knobs from your bass, get a small flat head screw driver and loosen the set screw on the side of the knob that's recessed into a hole on the side. I'll make you any color guard you want but since you've already got one with a mirrored guard, you might go with black on a white bass or white backed clear acrylic. Just a suggestion.

anndra · Post by **anndra** » Fri Oct 15, 2004 11:44 am

Hi Dane - I knew to loosen the set-screws from the knobs, but that's the problem with the controls on the Ric 4001s - only one of them will loosen itself.

Is there some kind of spray that will help loosen them up?

I'm pretty set on another mirrored scrachplate

aceonbass · Post by **aceonbass** » Fri Oct 15, 2004 12:02 pm

The pot shafts on RIC's controls are aluminum and can get corrosion on them that has probably stuck the knob on. I would think contact cleaner or WD40 would losen it up. A mirrored pickguard it is. I'll go see if my source has that material and get back to you.

40014002 · Post by **40014002** » Fri Oct 15, 2004 1:54 pm

Anndra
Do not worry about the paint finish on your Rickenbacker I have refinished many basses and I have used all the products at my disposal (I used to be a paint technician for ICI Dupont BASF Sherwin Williams and many other world paint suppliers) and the most recent bass I painted I used acrylic water based colour with an acrylic lacquer over the top (PLEASE SEE PICTURE) and I can tell you this will never fade or loose its gloss on a guitar for well over your life time.

And the reason many guitar manufactures use so called “poly” is that it takes longer for the paint to “dry or cure” and can be reheated or re-worked (some times through polishing) so that it flows thus achieving a flat finish and with little polishing after application of the paint will save time.

The down side to this is durability that’s were acrylics come in and with the right products you can achieve any finish you require including the flat guitar finish.

anndra · Post by **anndra** » Fri Oct 15, 2004 4:04 pm

Thank you very much indeed, gentlemen.

David: you have no idea how relieved I am to hear this information regarding the acrylic paints. My worst fear was the Ric being ruined in one way or another, but I have absolute faith in the guy doing the job and I feel considerably better knowing his advice on paints is sound.

That skyblueglo is gorgeous!

Dane: I look forward to hearing more from you about my mirrored pickguard soon

Michty braw!

learning_curve · Post by **learning_curve** » Fri Oct 15, 2004 7:44 pm

I was under the impression the older Guitars were painted with Laquer. Some with and some without a Laquer clear coat. Does seem there are many, many, more modern paint formulas that would work quite well. And although I sure don't know enough about guitar finishes to suggest you use laquer, I would think as long as your not talking about applying a 1/4 inch of paint I can't see to much tone change.

Am I wrong about the Laquer? and can there be a problem with using a newer finish? These are good questions. Is there anyone who has an educated answer to this? I am curious. I still need to make a few minor touch-up's in Azureglo and I never did find an answer to "exactly" what paint is on the older Ric's? Good post Anndra Nice Bass!

40014002 · Post by **40014002** » Sat Oct 16, 2004 12:49 am

Randy
You are right most guitars are painted with a clear Laquer or sealer this is done so as to seal the bare wood this can be seen on many older type guitars were with age the paint finish has sunk into the wood revealing the grain or none flat finish.

This was coursed because of the paint products used at the time ie "cellulose polyurathane" to aviod this sinkage problem the use of modern acrylic laquers clear or coloured is the answer.

Anndra the professional painter that you have spent some time with knows his craft well and i know that what he is saying makes great sence.
will you post some pictures of your bass when it is finished.

all the best Dave Carr

anndra · Post by **anndra** » Sat Oct 16, 2004 4:03 am

I most certainly will post pictures of the bass when it's finished, David.

Also - for Ted - bang on the money my friend! I tapped the neck exactly as you described and there is a clearly audible 'rattle' upon doing so. By way of comparison, I also checked the other Rics I have in the same way with no hint of rattle being produced. Truss rod it is, then.

Jings, I love this place!

dave4004 · Post by **dave4004** » Sun Oct 17, 2004 9:33 pm

I never did find an answer to "exactly" what paint is on the older Ric's?

In a thread earlier this year, John Hall said that until the late 1970s they used Fullerplast as both a sealcoat under the dye coat, and again as a top clearcoat. I believe Fullerplast was considered a catalyzed varnish. it certainly wasn't a lacquer.

learning_curve · Post by **learning_curve** » Mon Oct 18, 2004 12:32 am

Thanks Guy's I'll look up the thread. I just have some minor touchup work. Never Heard of Fullerplast?

If this is correct and fullerplast is used for the seal-coat, and the final clearcoat, what then is the Dye coat? I guess, this again, is still my question.

dave4004 · Post by **dave4004** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 9:45 pm

The thread is in the Guitar forum, "Question about my newly acquired RIC...". The last post in the thread was 3/23/04.

Also, on this page http://personal.nbnet.nb.ca/mccorp/JHgeneral.html John Hall has answered some questions about the older finishes.

I can't imagine that the dye coat would have been tinted lacquer unless the sealcoat and clearcoat were lacquer. But RIC didn't use lacquer except possibly in the 1950s.