McGuinn disciples help me out.

loverickbass · Post by **loverickbass** » Mon Feb 07, 2005 3:37 pm

OK, so I'm trying to learn MTM and TTT from McGuinns Homespun DVD but I can't figure out what he's doing in between the main chords. It's like some weird passing chords or something. Mind you, I am a bass player/casual guitar player trying my luck with 12 string so be easy with me.

Cole

varmint · Post by **varmint** » Tue Feb 15, 2005 11:47 am

Hi J.C.,
I'm trying to learn them too. I got a 370/12 for Christmas and I'm trying to learn all of the Byrds tunes my fingers (and brain) can handle.
You're right, he's playing passing chords. I'm not sure about them, but I believe they're put in there to sort of "fill in" the gaps between the main chords. I think it's a Folk Guitarist thing. Listening closely, it does seem to make a difference. I haven't quite got the technique down yet, but I'll keep working on it.
Good Luck!

leftybass · Post by **leftybass** » Tue Feb 15, 2005 12:42 pm

I think it's fair to mention that McGuinn plays the songs differently on the video that he did on the Byrds recordings; he explains this a little bit when he goes through 'Turn Turn Turn' and shows the fingerpicking method he used on the record. MTM was fingerpicked on the record too...

kristcaldwell · Post by **kristcaldwell** » Wed Jan 04, 2006 11:09 am

looks like an A sus2 and D sus2 on MTM

loverickbass · Post by **loverickbass** » Wed Jan 04, 2006 4:18 pm

I figured it out, just forgot to report back in. He's playing an F sharp note inbetween some of the chords. He's fretting the Fsharp and strumming open the treble strings.

Cole

doctorwho · Post by **doctorwho** » Wed Jan 04, 2006 10:11 pm

I do that for T³, but I play straight chords (no in-betweeners) for MTM.

budrocket · Post by **budrocket** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 3:11 am

In the Byrds, Crosby did most of the strumming, McGuinn mostly played a lot of arpeggiation, using hybrid picking (pick between thumb & first finger, picking the strings with middle & ring fingers, using metal banjo picks on those two fingers), in what is called a "forward roll," very similar to Ralph Stanley's banjo style (McGuinn was a banjo player, he took lessons from Frank Hamilton at the Old Town School of Folk Music in Chicago, & went on to play with 60's folk groups like the Limeliters & the Chad Mitchell Trio, as well as session work).

So a lot of those "weird passing chords" are descending notes played against arpeggiated notes that stay the same...if that makes any sense. Occasionally he & Cros would work out harmonized arpeggios, sometimes Cros (who could also do hybrid picking) would play a combination strum/picking thing that weaves around McGuinn...other times he'd aggressively thrash away, i.e. 8MH.

McGuinn often double-tracked his guitar parts as well, especially from TTT on, so it's not often easy to tell what he's doing. But it sure is fun to try to figure it out.

Really, I think the "Byrds sound" is McGuinn & Crosby's interlocking parts together. Cros is a really under-rated guitarist, IMHO. Some of his best playing ever is on those Byrds records.

bw

firstbassman · Post by **firstbassman** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 7:48 am

I’m not smart enough to transcribe from records but even my fantastic teacher has some trouble with some of the songs I bring him.
- A lot of stuff recorded in the 60s, as you all know, had a lot of reverb, echo, fuzz and other effects which complicates the transcribing.
- Some of the ‘unofficial’ stuff might have been recorded on tape recorders with dying batteries.
- There is no guarantee that all the instruments were always perfectly in tune.
[I once asked Jorma: “What did you guys do before there were compact electronic tuners?”
Response: “We played out of tune.”]
- A lot of songs were played tuned down a whole or half-step.
- A lot of songs were played in different tunings.
- And, as mentioned before, a lot of overdubbing was done too, so there might actually be two or more guitar parts played by one person.
That is one thing that is so cool about guys like Roger and Jorma playing songs now acoustically by themselves. One can get to see and hear how the old songs can be played.

budrocket · Post by **budrocket** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 8:20 am

I don't think much of any of the Byrds, especially '65-'68 classic period, was played using alternate tunings...Cros got into that later on in his post-Byrds writing, but previous to that they kept things pretty much in concert tuning, with the exception of maybe a couple things off YTY, but I'll have to check to make sure. Too hard to deal with in live situations without a spare guitar already set up, & I believe they were still doing 25 - 30 minute sets at that point.

Besides, alternate tunings on the 12 are a *****!

I've found that if you figure out what the rhythm guitar is doing, that will help you figure out McGuinn's parts a little better, simply by process of elimination. Get the stereo albums & use headphones, they usually hard-panned the drums & instruments, so it's sometimes actually a little easier to pick out the parts than modern recordings...

bw

firstbassman · Post by **firstbassman** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 10:50 am

Clarification:
I wasn't talking about only Byrds records.
My interests are much wider than that.
I also have to figure out bass parts sometimes too for band songs and those low frequencies buried in the mix make it twice as hard.

Agree that alt tunings on a 12-string are not fun. Kantner performs with about six 360/12s and has his tech (Mike) handle it all.
That's what I need ... five more 360s and a guitar tech.

leftyguitars · Post by **leftyguitars** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 11:47 am

You need helping out J.C.?
Certainly, which way did you come in?

firstbassman · Post by **firstbassman** » Mon Jan 09, 2006 11:08 am

Yeah Cole, sorry, we kinda got off track there.
As a fellow bass-player-turned-guitarist, I'd recommend NOT doing what Roger's doing on the DVD. Keep it simple at first and make music. Roger's doing these banjo rolls on the high strings on all those chords for TTT. IMHO, It gets too complicated for us beg/intermediate players.
Stick to a simplifed version of the intro, and strum the rest.
The tricky part will be the break. The break follows one time through of the verse and the chorus. The chorus is relatively easy (up and down on the G string) and Roger shows it very well on the DVD. The solo that follows the verse is a little trickier. I let my lead guitarist handle that one.
- Mark

loverickbass · Post by **loverickbass** » Mon Jan 09, 2006 4:17 pm

That's basicly what I've done. I've done a simple version of the break in TTT. I play the melody line with a syncopaded(sp?)flatpicking part on top. It doesn't sound exactly like RM but it will have to do for now.

If you work at it you can flatpick alot of the stuff that Roger does with the fingerpicks.

Cole

loverickbass · Post by **loverickbass** » Mon Jan 09, 2006 4:24 pm

BTW, it sure is fun playing all of those Byrds tunes on this baby!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v464/loverickbass/IM003127.jpg

firstbassman · Post by **firstbassman** » Tue Jan 10, 2006 4:40 am

Yeah, I saw that pic in one of your other posts.
Gorgeous.
I have to make do for now with a Takamine 12-string acous/elec.