What's The "Buzz" About The Feiten System?
Moderator: jingle_jangle
I took a class in college called "The physics of music." Basically, it involved endlessly listening to sin and square waves and staring into an oscilloscope. At any rate, I seem to remember an experiment on "just noticeable difference" which concerns the very topic we're talking about. At least in my freshman seminar sampling group, the range of tonal sensitivities was relatively wide.
"The only worthwhile conquests are those wrested from ignorance"
-Napoleon
-Napoleon
John - I would bet that your wide-range sample was probably a "typical" statistical "population" and that it could be divided into a standard bell curve: there would be a few "stone deaf" participants and a few who could hear the difference between a low-pitched gnat fart and a high-pitched gnat fart. Then there would have been the typical large lump of people in the middle under the curve who were neither deaf, nor audibly acute enough to hear really fine differences.
All I'm saying is that statistically, I'm betting the majority of people wouldn't hear the difference.
You know, Chet Atkins recorded a lot of nice guitar playing on instruments without this "intonation marvel". So did Andres Segovia. And Charlie Christian, etc...
Even today, this system (ok, "these" systems - since there are several) remain a "fringe" enhancement offered and installed on a very small percentage of instruments.
If the difference were EARTHSHATTERING you would see these installed on every guitar coming out of Gibson, Fender, Martin and all of the exclusive, high-end hand builders.
Even with a Feiten system on any one of my 15 guitars, I'm still not going to sound like Chet Atkins. But, by the same token, even without one, my ears are still good enough to hear the incorrect intonation/tuning on Roger McGuinn's 12 string intro on the recording of THE WORLD TURNS ALL AROUND HER from The Byrd's 1965 TTT LP
All I'm saying is that statistically, I'm betting the majority of people wouldn't hear the difference.
You know, Chet Atkins recorded a lot of nice guitar playing on instruments without this "intonation marvel". So did Andres Segovia. And Charlie Christian, etc...
Even today, this system (ok, "these" systems - since there are several) remain a "fringe" enhancement offered and installed on a very small percentage of instruments.
If the difference were EARTHSHATTERING you would see these installed on every guitar coming out of Gibson, Fender, Martin and all of the exclusive, high-end hand builders.
Even with a Feiten system on any one of my 15 guitars, I'm still not going to sound like Chet Atkins. But, by the same token, even without one, my ears are still good enough to hear the incorrect intonation/tuning on Roger McGuinn's 12 string intro on the recording of THE WORLD TURNS ALL AROUND HER from The Byrd's 1965 TTT LP
I don;t know.
I've spent SO much time over the years, making records, retuning guitars for specific bits.
That is, most of it is fine but that ONE chord jumps out as sounding out of tune everytime, so we stop and retune for that chord, or we go back and drop in JUST that chord everytime in the other tuning...you get the idea.
It's just a common problem that if the guitar sounds right for open G chords then the first position D chord sounds sharp onthe G string.
Or the other way round..E chord is in tune but the G on the low E string sounds sharp.
It only takes one instrument playing with the not NOT sharp to make the whole record sound shaky.
And distortion makes it MUCH worse. Really screaming fuzzy guitars take off into beating with the lisghtest imperfections in tuning. They REALLY want to be right.
We've sometimes tuned EACH chord or open 5th separately to get them really right in those kinds of bands. (no names revealed).
I agree there's never going to be a "perfect" and perfect probably isn't even desirable.
But i like anything that let's me spend less of my studio life waiting for guitars to be tuned. <g>
I HAVE had experience with bands using the Buzzy system and it does seem to help. Although again it isn't a cure-ALL.
So i am still curious about the Earvana.
again, any other experiences?
I've spent SO much time over the years, making records, retuning guitars for specific bits.
That is, most of it is fine but that ONE chord jumps out as sounding out of tune everytime, so we stop and retune for that chord, or we go back and drop in JUST that chord everytime in the other tuning...you get the idea.
It's just a common problem that if the guitar sounds right for open G chords then the first position D chord sounds sharp onthe G string.
Or the other way round..E chord is in tune but the G on the low E string sounds sharp.
It only takes one instrument playing with the not NOT sharp to make the whole record sound shaky.
And distortion makes it MUCH worse. Really screaming fuzzy guitars take off into beating with the lisghtest imperfections in tuning. They REALLY want to be right.
We've sometimes tuned EACH chord or open 5th separately to get them really right in those kinds of bands. (no names revealed).
I agree there's never going to be a "perfect" and perfect probably isn't even desirable.
But i like anything that let's me spend less of my studio life waiting for guitars to be tuned. <g>
I HAVE had experience with bands using the Buzzy system and it does seem to help. Although again it isn't a cure-ALL.
So i am still curious about the Earvana.
again, any other experiences?
Even after that seminar - my ears aren't generally good enough to pick up the inevitable intonation problems with most guitar music. Musta been too many years of playing highland bagpipes and deafening myself before switching to fretted stuff.
The reason most ppl *HATE* bagpipes is because 70% of all players don't know how to play in tune at all. . . an out-of-tune scottish bagpipe is an ugly, ugly thing.
Once we start using digital gadgets to correct intonation after the fact (like Madonna does in concerts) music will die
The reason most ppl *HATE* bagpipes is because 70% of all players don't know how to play in tune at all. . . an out-of-tune scottish bagpipe is an ugly, ugly thing.
Once we start using digital gadgets to correct intonation after the fact (like Madonna does in concerts) music will die
"The only worthwhile conquests are those wrested from ignorance"
-Napoleon
-Napoleon
I've been hearing that such and such will be the death of music for too long as well.
So far, in whatever form, it seems to carry on.
I know it's an extreme example, but if one person delivers a stirring emotional performance but with tuning imperfections that can be 'fixed' and another delivers an emotionless reading with spot on time and pitching, i know which one i want and which one the public will laugh, cry, fall in love with, and BUY.
AutonTune can be severely overused, but people have been dropping in instead of recording through in one take for 40 years now. People called THAT "cheating" as well in its early days. And before that they were editing takes together to 'cheat' and create better performances.
Techniques are no threat to music because it's not the part the public actually hears.
So far, in whatever form, it seems to carry on.
I know it's an extreme example, but if one person delivers a stirring emotional performance but with tuning imperfections that can be 'fixed' and another delivers an emotionless reading with spot on time and pitching, i know which one i want and which one the public will laugh, cry, fall in love with, and BUY.
AutonTune can be severely overused, but people have been dropping in instead of recording through in one take for 40 years now. People called THAT "cheating" as well in its early days. And before that they were editing takes together to 'cheat' and create better performances.
Techniques are no threat to music because it's not the part the public actually hears.
Perhaps one way to validate the Buzz Feiten system further is to determine the number of guitar manufacturers that have used the technology when building new guitars. Those manufacturers that have climbed "on board" can be seen here. A review of this page reveals about a dozen guitar builders that have adopted the system to date.
I have played the Garrison guitars which are unique for a couple of reasons. As far as the Buzz Feiten system goes, when I play these guitars I do notice the compensation on the bridge, however, I do not hear anything different between The Garrison guitars and other quality guitars that I play in the same shop that do not have the system.
I have played the Garrison guitars which are unique for a couple of reasons. As far as the Buzz Feiten system goes, when I play these guitars I do notice the compensation on the bridge, however, I do not hear anything different between The Garrison guitars and other quality guitars that I play in the same shop that do not have the system.
Life, as with music, often requires one to let go of the melody and listen to the rhythm
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That a trained ear is able to appreciate the Feiten system is comforting Gary.
I think that the industry and amateur players are going back to school with the aim of understanding and evaluating the benefit of the system for their own needs. It is interesting to see all points of view.
I think I am up for a try at some point. I am wondering what guitar I will use. Until then I will just drone on.
I think that the industry and amateur players are going back to school with the aim of understanding and evaluating the benefit of the system for their own needs. It is interesting to see all points of view.
I think I am up for a try at some point. I am wondering what guitar I will use. Until then I will just drone on.
Life, as with music, often requires one to let go of the melody and listen to the rhythm
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While walking at noontime, it struck me that perhaps what we are seeing is the emergence of yet another "temperament" as defined by the Feiten tuning and mechanics. When the musical world transitioned between what was commonly accepted, there were a lot of "hold outs" who disagreed. Many claiming "not to hear" the difference or claiming that the difference didn't matter or was worse than...
What becomes accepted generally takes time.
What becomes accepted generally takes time.
This may sound dumb, but what's the point? I never had a new guitar, even a Rickenbacker, that was even properly intonated (the Ricks weren't even close). If the manufacturer doesn't even want to take time to properly intonate the instrument, after outfitting it with an expensive adjustable bridge, what difference does a Buzz Feiten nut and tuning system make? The nut doesn't even come into play as you play notes further up the neck. Proper string saddle adjustment seems far more important to me. Also, that Korg DT-7 tuner with the Buzz Feiten temperament isn't even accurate compared to a Peterson VS-1 or profesional strobe tuner. The Peterson easily notices whether you have tilted your guitar forwards or backwards 10 degrees. After intonating the best I could with my Korg tuner, my saddles were still off of perfect intonation by a full turn or more. The Peterson VS-1 EASILY sees a quarter turn change in string saddle adjustment. You can tune to the attack or decay. Your finger pressure has a LOT to do with the frequency of a note. Again, it is easily seen with the Peterson VS-1. And we haven't even addressed the issue that many people bend certain notes instead of fretting straight downward (hey, we're human), and use unequal finger pressure within a chord. Also, my biggest gripe with my instruments is that I have dead notes scattered across the fretboard. Being a tad off of perfect pitch doesn't sound as bad as a DEAD note (to me at least). And there is nothing you can do about it except change to a different type of string, and pick up a new dead note somewhere else. Or buy a Steinberger which is technically "perfect" and has no dead notes, but sounds a little sterile everywhere. You can't even adjust the intonation on an acoustic guitar, unless you install a different saddle. Why worry about the nut?
When I have perfectly adjusted bridges, perfectly fretted and pressured notes, tuning keys that never slip out of adjustment, no dead notes on my fretboard, a guitar that always maintains its body at a 90 degree angle to the pull of gravity and/or inertia, necks that don't change with the weather, and rent that doesn't come due...........maybe then I will worry about what Buzz Feiten has bequeathed to me.
Or just go off and invent my own tuning temperament system like he did, and make a few bucks in the process.
When I have perfectly adjusted bridges, perfectly fretted and pressured notes, tuning keys that never slip out of adjustment, no dead notes on my fretboard, a guitar that always maintains its body at a 90 degree angle to the pull of gravity and/or inertia, necks that don't change with the weather, and rent that doesn't come due...........maybe then I will worry about what Buzz Feiten has bequeathed to me.
Or just go off and invent my own tuning temperament system like he did, and make a few bucks in the process.
Here's a scenario.
Young rock band comes in.
They have two guitars bass guitar and drums.
In pre-production, it's clear that everytime they play a G they sound in tune.
They move to a D and the band sounds glaringly out of tune.
I hear it, THEY hear it. They stop and bicker about it, etc.
Now, if they try the Feiten system on their guitars and they no longer sound out of tune (to them or to me) i say that's a good thing.
if it DOESN'T work, then it was pointless.
That's my bottom line.
not whether someone else thinks it SHOULD work or not or SHOULD be "important" or not.
When i make a record i want the guitars to sound in tune. And i want that with the least amount of time taken away from more creative concerns to acheive that.
That's what *I* "worry" about.
Young rock band comes in.
They have two guitars bass guitar and drums.
In pre-production, it's clear that everytime they play a G they sound in tune.
They move to a D and the band sounds glaringly out of tune.
I hear it, THEY hear it. They stop and bicker about it, etc.
Now, if they try the Feiten system on their guitars and they no longer sound out of tune (to them or to me) i say that's a good thing.
if it DOESN'T work, then it was pointless.
That's my bottom line.
not whether someone else thinks it SHOULD work or not or SHOULD be "important" or not.
When i make a record i want the guitars to sound in tune. And i want that with the least amount of time taken away from more creative concerns to acheive that.
That's what *I* "worry" about.
So, what is the answer? Make every young rock band install Buzz's system? We've been making "guitar" records for a lot of years without it. Its not clear to me that studio/producers are going to dictate the instruments used.
I'm not arguing that having the system on all of the (probably poorly set-up) guitars that every band shows up with won't help save time on the bottom line.
I'm not arguing that having the system on all of the (probably poorly set-up) guitars that every band shows up with won't help save time on the bottom line.
Buy a Peterson VS-1 and get ALL the guitars in the band set up properly, THEN see if they want the Buzz Feiten system. If you have so much as changed string gauges after getting an accurate setup, or changed action height, you are no longer intonated properly. I bet a lot of bands are guilty of this.
THE COST: A one time cost of $200 for the VS-1, OR at least that much for EVERY guitar they want to have Feitenized. Even if Feitenized, they will have to reintonate EVERY TIME they change to different strings ANYWAY. Or change the action height. And add a new guitar. And add a new member with poorly setup guitars. And on and on and on...........
You LOSE money when you sell a Feitenized guitar. You KEEP your investment when you buy a VS-1, and you can make a few bucks setting up other people's guitars.
I live in the real world and have to stretch my money. The VS-1 is economical, and comes with Peterson's version of tempered tuning, which is very good. Once you really get your guitar set up to YOU, and nobody else, you may not even need the Buzz Feiten system. Did your setup guru fret the strings with the same pressure that YOU use when he intonated it? Even if you get the Buzz Feiten system, you will STILL have to get a good tuner to get the most out of it. The Peterson VS-1 is more accurate than the Korg DT-7. And it works on more than guitars. It's a better deal for working folks that have to make the most out of their instrument money. Buzz Feiten is too expensive for most folks.
THE COST: A one time cost of $200 for the VS-1, OR at least that much for EVERY guitar they want to have Feitenized. Even if Feitenized, they will have to reintonate EVERY TIME they change to different strings ANYWAY. Or change the action height. And add a new guitar. And add a new member with poorly setup guitars. And on and on and on...........
You LOSE money when you sell a Feitenized guitar. You KEEP your investment when you buy a VS-1, and you can make a few bucks setting up other people's guitars.
I live in the real world and have to stretch my money. The VS-1 is economical, and comes with Peterson's version of tempered tuning, which is very good. Once you really get your guitar set up to YOU, and nobody else, you may not even need the Buzz Feiten system. Did your setup guru fret the strings with the same pressure that YOU use when he intonated it? Even if you get the Buzz Feiten system, you will STILL have to get a good tuner to get the most out of it. The Peterson VS-1 is more accurate than the Korg DT-7. And it works on more than guitars. It's a better deal for working folks that have to make the most out of their instrument money. Buzz Feiten is too expensive for most folks.
I have a Peterson 490 and while the "virtual strobe" probably works fine, it isn't at all the same as Peterson's "big boys".
I think William's opinion is that the Feiten system would save >his< time (as an engineer/producer?) in a studio situation.
I think that a band that shows up for a professional recording session with instruments that are not set-up correctly (including intonation) deserve to pay studio fees while putzing around trying to tune.
However, like I said before, I think that both William and Don have better reasons for "liking" this "questionable/controversial" new system than I do for sluffing it off.
I think William's opinion is that the Feiten system would save >his< time (as an engineer/producer?) in a studio situation.
I think that a band that shows up for a professional recording session with instruments that are not set-up correctly (including intonation) deserve to pay studio fees while putzing around trying to tune.
However, like I said before, I think that both William and Don have better reasons for "liking" this "questionable/controversial" new system than I do for sluffing it off.
My Peterson 490 has a tuning accuracy to 0.1 cents (a tenth of a cent) as does the VS-1.
It is pre-loaded with eight "historical" temperaments but it also allows you to add up to 64 other temperaments that are user-defined.
So, the 490 will allow me to add the Feiten system temperament. Obviously, the ability to add them would suggest that doing so is useful in the real world. I know that the concert piano family can be "stretch" tuned (I only know this because there is a stretch tune option on the highest-end Peterson tuner).
The 490 "powers up" in Equal temperament where each semi tone is approx. 6% above the last (12th root of two). Equalis supposed to be "equally" good in all key signatures (or equally poor depending on your perspective).
Pythagorean includes perfect 4ths and 5ths but poor 3rds. Certain keys are better than others. The diuatonic keys are very good.
Just includes perfect triads in twelve keys.
Power 5ths is tempered for clean 5ths on distorted guitar.
Mean-Tone has perfect triads in 16 keys but stay away from Db, Gb, Ab, Bmaj, Bb, Eb, F and G#min
Well-Tempered provides "strong differentiation of key color" stay away from most of the keys noted above in mean.
Each temperament was developed to make certain musical pieces "sound better". Although I don't play in an orchestra, I suspect that there are temperament issues when playing various historical pieces.
It is pretty interesting and very academic. I prefer my music with feeling. Chet Atkins playing an old Gretsch sounds fine to me.
He didn't use a strobe tuner to set intonation and he probably never heard of Bizz or his system.
We all make certain compromises when we tune. I'm sure that each of you have your own tuning sequence (even if you use an electronic tuner for everything).
BTW - the reason I dug out the book on the 490 was to check if it had a built in frequency generator (it doesn't) - I certainly don't know all the stuff above by rote.
It is pre-loaded with eight "historical" temperaments but it also allows you to add up to 64 other temperaments that are user-defined.
So, the 490 will allow me to add the Feiten system temperament. Obviously, the ability to add them would suggest that doing so is useful in the real world. I know that the concert piano family can be "stretch" tuned (I only know this because there is a stretch tune option on the highest-end Peterson tuner).
The 490 "powers up" in Equal temperament where each semi tone is approx. 6% above the last (12th root of two). Equalis supposed to be "equally" good in all key signatures (or equally poor depending on your perspective).
Pythagorean includes perfect 4ths and 5ths but poor 3rds. Certain keys are better than others. The diuatonic keys are very good.
Just includes perfect triads in twelve keys.
Power 5ths is tempered for clean 5ths on distorted guitar.
Mean-Tone has perfect triads in 16 keys but stay away from Db, Gb, Ab, Bmaj, Bb, Eb, F and G#min
Well-Tempered provides "strong differentiation of key color" stay away from most of the keys noted above in mean.
Each temperament was developed to make certain musical pieces "sound better". Although I don't play in an orchestra, I suspect that there are temperament issues when playing various historical pieces.
It is pretty interesting and very academic. I prefer my music with feeling. Chet Atkins playing an old Gretsch sounds fine to me.
He didn't use a strobe tuner to set intonation and he probably never heard of Bizz or his system.
We all make certain compromises when we tune. I'm sure that each of you have your own tuning sequence (even if you use an electronic tuner for everything).
BTW - the reason I dug out the book on the 490 was to check if it had a built in frequency generator (it doesn't) - I certainly don't know all the stuff above by rote.