What to do with a faker?

jingle_jangle · Post by **jingle_jangle** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 6:07 am

Sheena, in that case, let me apologize re: my old Chernobyl remark. I work with lots of Russians, some Brits, a very good friend is from Edinburgh...none have taken offense, probably just because we're friends, and they can dole it out, too, re: America. However, they're here, and there usually is a reason why, and it is not because this is an awful place to live and work!

"What i wanted to say was - they probably thought that what they said about RIC, its trademark policy & the forums was nothing more than a joke, and you probably took it as an offence to RIC."

Sheena, there is no way that this could be true if you read the thread. How can personal attack in the midst of an (unintelligent. often unintelligible) discussion on intellectual property law be seen as "jokes"?

However, if I am misunderstanding you on this point, maybe you are saying that the whole discussion was a "joke" in that it was unnecessary and above all, uninformed.

"I could've taken your comment about insiders having no sense of humour about their home towns/countries as an offence, too..."

...and if you did, I would term that "hypersensitive" in the extreme. It was neutral observation, directed at no one in particular; nothing more, nothing less. And it's true, besides. Plus, it seems to exist solely in peoples' minds...the lousiest places on Earth to live have their boosters who are just as rabid as those residents of the nicest places.

What this does underscore is my last sentence in my last long post: Although English is your second (or possibly third or fifth) language, cultural cues and behaviors are not learned like language. So you have a different take on things that, say, a Brit, Scot, or American, who speak English as a native tongue, but still have cultural differences.

Those guys were all native English speakers. They made all the spelling and grammatical errors of native-English speakers, too.

sloop_john_b · Post by **sloop_john_b** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 6:08 am

Sheena, they definitley had malicious intent over there. They didn't seem to be joking around about John Hall or RIC. I've never heard the term "Eddy" before and neither have most apparently, so how could it possibly be insulting?

jingle_jangle · Post by **jingle_jangle** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 9:01 am

Well, John, apparently BASASSIN (from Edinburgh, as he stated) knew exactly what I meant, as did one or two other members--one from Australia--who managed to take me to task before BASSASSIN hit the "post" button a day or two later.

On the other hand, it's easy to guess "Edinburgh" from "Eddy", and that I suppose would make my nickname for the city even more demeaning to its residents who were sensitive to that sort of thing, which was NOT my intent. It was meant as a gentle jibe, but not taken as such. And when people are THAT "on edge" in a Forum, my kind of a remark would tend to cause flare-ups.

John, your phrase "malicious intent" captures the feel of parts of the discussion before I stupidly joined the fray. Yet the webmaster chose to chastise me, even after the attacks on me turned personal. Note that I never called BASSASSIN "little" BASSASSIN, yet that was one of his milder cracks.

(If he knew me, he could call me "baldy". Would that be grounds for anger on my part? Har! dly.)

We do tend to be insular, even in this best and usually most tolerant of Forums...

So, my experiences with Other Forums:

Fender: Kicked off, but allowed to rejoin after two years. Alleged infraction: spamming. No details shared, unresolved.

BGC: Personal attacks brought on by member after I refused to make him a fake TRC.

DP: Abuse brought on by my own ignorance. Mea culpa, sorta.

Gretschpages: Generally welcome, but taken to task for comments re: our old friend MVP, who has since drifted away.

RRF: My spiritual home.

RIC: My home away from home.

What does that say?

lyle_from_minneapolis · Sat Feb 24, 2007 9:04 am

Paul was a newcomer to that forum so he came off too sharp-- no posting history, no understanding of subtleties, etc. So they whipped on him. Oh well, makes sense to me. But in reading that thread, I am again glad to be here, because it was an exhausting and overly emotional read. Just too much wasted time.

I really hate forums, but I love this one. We generally stick to the topics. More to the point, we are more focused on the topics than on one-upmanship.

Or one-up-person-ship.

Or what-ever.

sowhat · Post by **sowhat** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 9:05 am

John, i wasn't talking about "Eddy" only and alone, i was talking about "living in the darkest", the play upon a dudepit member's screen name etc. That was rude, imo. But it's only my opinion.
Paul - i was born here, i live here and i'll die here. I understand Russia may not be the best place for everybody, but for me it is. No need to apologize, i understand you may not know that Chernobyl tragedy affected members of my family among many others. As far as nice vs lousy places are concerned - this all is subjective, which means you may think of some place as lousy and other people may think it's a great place to live. And of course, when i said "i could've taken", i literally meant i could've taken, not that i've really taken an offence. English is my third language, btw. And i don't really know it.

jingle_jangle · Post by **jingle_jangle** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 9:46 am

No, Sheena...I never said, "living in the darkest". A phrase like that, to an English speaker, is pretty, er, dark; almost evil-sounding, although it is not really good spoken English.

Here's where nuances are difficult to understand to non-native speakers (in any language).

What I did say was, "Living in darkest Eddy as you do...", which to a native English speaker is a fairly common, hyperbolic and ironic, play on the Kiplingian "darkest Africa".

A native-English-speaking person doesn't even have to understand where the phrase comes from, to understand its irony (people in LA talk about "darkest Beverly Hills" or "darkest Anaheim", expressing the irony of the phrase to varying degrees without intending or understanding it as an insult.)

By the simple act of adding the definite article "the" in front of the word "darkest", you have given, and understood the entire phrase to have a sinister meaning.

Which points out that there always two people involved in a communication. One to invent, and put out, words, and one to receive, and interpret, them. When the interpretation is cloudy, conversational difficulties arise. This is fairly common when one person is a non-native speaker. (My wife is a native-Portuguese speaker. There is a LOT of explaining done by us concerning the nuances and subtleties of both languages!)

But for you to take offense or consider something "rude" when it was misperceived (again, by you, Sheena) is probably forming an opinion too quickly, before the facts have been aired.

Again, those guys WERE native-speakers, and chose to take offense when none was intended.

sowhat · Post by **sowhat** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 10:11 am

Okay, i may have misunderstood that "darkest" reference, yes, i'm not a native English speaker, i speak different language, and i may be stupid, too. But for some reason a few native English speakers did take offence at that post. That brings a straightforward question: why a few different people take offence at one single remark if it was so innocent?
BTW, i'll say it again: that doesn't mean i agree with everything they say, especially when it comes to making "fun" of RIC trademark policy. Perhaps it was just a mutual misunderstanding. And they may not have been looking at all that talk as an insult to RIC & its employees. And for Rick fans it definitely was an insult. A personal one, perhaps.

jingle_jangle · Post by **jingle_jangle** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 10:24 am

Nobody said anything about "stupid", Sheena, nor did I infer. I think I also paid due respect to non-native speakers, too, and you speak much better English that any Russian I will ever attempt.

It has taken patience to stick with this, however, on both our parts, and I thank you.

"That brings a straightforward question: why a few different people take offence at one single remark if it was so innocent?"

Here again we get into my comment about one person inventing and the other(s) interpreting. If one or the other is out of synch, and no attempt is made to clarify, and conclusions and intentions are inferred, offense is taken.

Your "if it was so innocent" phrase implies that you suspect that it wasn't. Perhaps "innocent" is not the appropriate word for me to have used in this situation. Better to say that I had "no malicious intent"; just meant a bit of ribbing, or "taking the ****" as a Brit might say and a Scot should understand. But an Aussie was first to reply, and his reply was in the nature of "who the heck is this guy that he can come on here and stir things up? Let's take him to task on this 'darkest Eddy' nonsense". And others joined in the game of "bash the arrogant outsider".

As I mentioned before, and others' perceptions have borne out, in most Forums, things do get ruder, favorites are indulged, newbies are chastised without clarification attempts. So be it. I'm just happy to hang out here, and in the RIC group, too.

bassassin · Post by **bassassin** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 10:44 am

Hello you lot.

Since you're all talking about me, it's about time I stopped lurking here & tried to straighten a thing or two out. I think this "Eddy" business is getting blown out of all proportion.

I'm not a regular poster at The Dudepit - I joined up there after being told about the Rick copy discussion on a different forum. I contributed to the discussion because I thought my experience, & knowledge of these instruments might be of interest. Such appeared to be the case, and I contributed in the spirit of the discussion.

Paul's post, I have to admit, felt a bit condescending - it did give the impression that he felt a dim little Brit living in some parochial cultural backwater ("darkest Eddy"

) couldn't possibly have the intellect & sophistication to understand such weighty matters as US copyright law.

A few other 'Pitters had already responded by the time I read it - but I did answer back, with, I have to admit, a fair amount of unsubtle & elephantine tongue-in-cheek sarcasm. However, I didn't make any mention of Paul's comments about Edinburgh. I'm not actually from Edinburgh (I was born about as far away from there as it's possible to be & still be in Britain), I just happen to live there. As it happens, I don't actually like the place particularly.

Anyone who's actually taken the time to read my posts on the thread (it's all a bit mixed up & non-sequential now, because I think two separate threads got merged) will, I hope, appreciate that I understand & (grudgingly!) support RIC's actions regarding Rick copies, whether or not I'm fully conversant with the intricacies of the relevant legislation.

My particular obsession is vintage Japanese guitars - and for a variety of reasons, Rick bass copies are amongst the scarcest & most sought-after by collectors. I also love the look & sound of Rickenbacker basses, which is why I have a particular interest in Rick copies.

I think a lot of people who try & sell these instruments & find themselves falling foul of RIC (not speaking personally - I've never sold one) automatically assume it is simple pettiness - hence some of the comments made by other Dudepit posters. That was one reason I joined that discussion - to try & explain my understanding of the situation.

My understanding is that Rickenbacker need to constantly act in protection of all of their registered designs & trademarks, because failing to do so would result in the designs effectively becoming public property, therefore opening the floodgates to the manufacture of cheap copies.

I'm impressed by John Hall's integrity in his commitment to maintaining the quality of his product, and refusal to compromise by licensing the brand to cheap mass-producers, which would seem the easiest option under the circumstances. If the continuation of RIC & its products is at the cost of the ease of buying & selling old Japcrap fakes - then so be it! A world without Rickenbackers would be a poorer one.

Jon.

PS - up here it's known as "Embra". Like Queen Elizabeth's huband, the Chooky Embra. (Say it in a Scottish accent.)

sowhat · Post by **sowhat** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 10:50 am

Okay, no problem. To clarify my point, my "if it was so innocent" remark doesn't imply the comment was an intended personal attack. That only meant that, as i understood (and i may be mistaken, of course), you didn't think your comment sounded rude & were a bit surprised at the unfriendly reaction. To me, that kind of reaction seemed predictable. Now personally i wouldn't react that way, like going into personal insults, cause a rude reaction to a comment that was interpreted as rude only increases the volume of rudeness in the talk, so to speak.
As far as the last paragraph of your post is concerned - well, unfortunately it's kinda natural. And it happens on this forum as well from time to time. And in real life groups, too (from kindergarten to work team). Misunderstanding, misinterpretation, etc, and a "newbie" being considered "suspicious", especially if he/she makes some strong statement at the very start of their "message board career".

ilan · Post by **ilan** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 11:03 am

"Like Queen Elizabeth's huband, the Chooky Embra. (Say it in a Scottish accent.)"

ROFL!

jingle_jangle · Post by **jingle_jangle** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 11:11 am

Welcome, Jon! I t's good to see you here and I, for one,hope that we all can have productive chats on lots of topics, especially all things Rickenbacker.

It's a good feeling to read your well-thought-out post above, absent of any personal enmity. Hopefully you will accept my apologies for the "Bassass" remarks and we can move on to constructive deconstruction of all things Rickenbacker, and some beyond, too.

I, too, collect oddball Japanese guitars ('60s solidbodies). My pride and joy is my '65 Bradford, which cost me $40.00 on Ebay, if I recall correctly. But right now, I'm becoming fanatical about German post-war archtops.

Again, good to see you here, and I do hope you stick around for some interesting talk.

bassassin · Post by **bassassin** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 11:25 am

Hi Paul, Sheena & everyone else who's taken an interest in this saga. No apology necessary & I do hope I can make some interesting & useful contributions here - remember I can spot a Faker at 1000 yards!

J.

charlyg · Post by **charlyg** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 11:31 am

All's well that "ends" well!

Howdy!

ilan · Post by **ilan** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 11:34 am

"But right now, I'm becoming fanatical about German post-war archtops."

Paul W, do you know Musikkeller-Dorsten? (http://www.german-guitars.de/gb/index.html) He has very nice stuff that might interest you. Check out his sold guitars, some serious eye candy can be found there. And isn't the "Roger" brand the same Roger Rossmeisl who designed, among other things, the original Model 4000?