Harmony Wheel and Mode Question for bass

ajish4 · Post by **ajish4** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 1:37 pm

Hey Charly,

I'm right there with you. I can only get so far in those books and then I get lost. The pile is getting high here as well!

I can't find the book you are suggesting. Is there one SPECIFICALLY for bass, or just the fret board book in general?

Thanks from me too for starting this thread!

charlyg · Post by **charlyg** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 1:42 pm

Yes, It is called Bass Logic.

ajish4 · Post by **ajish4** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 5:32 pm

Thanks Charly,

I just ordered the book, next is the Harmony wheel!

charlyg · Post by **charlyg** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 6:00 pm

This is getting cool, we can help each other figure things out if we have any issues understanding the tools!

firstbassman · Post by **firstbassman** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 6:10 pm

if you see two major chords one after the other and a whole step apart, (D-E), they will be the IV and the V, as that relationship only exists in the IV V change

What about the III and IV in Dorian?
That's two major chords a whole step apart.

Or the (b)VII and tonic in Mixolydian?
Those are major chords also a whole step apart.
(As we just finished discussing.)

charlyg · Post by **charlyg** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 6:16 pm

Dorian is a scale, not a chord? Of course, I have no idea whether what I think is right, it's all I know right now.......

Are you saying there is such a thing as a Dorian chord scale?

Oh, I just remembered, he had two caveats. He said most of the time, and he said in popular music.

sloop_john_b · Post by **sloop_john_b** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 9:40 pm

Dorian is a mode of the minor scale (natural minor with a raised 6).

Ex: A dorian would be: A - B - C - D - E - F# - G - A

charlyg · Post by **charlyg** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 9:51 pm

What does that have to do with a chord progression? It is a response to a progression, it seems to me. It doesn't "affect" the chord progression as they don't change.

If someone says, let's do this in C MIx, what chords change, as compared to let's do this in C? And, would someone really say that?

jdogric12 · Post by **jdogric12** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 1:16 am

"What about the III and IV in Dorian?
That's two major chords a whole step apart. Or the (b)VII and tonic in Mixolydian?
Those are major chords also a whole step apart.
(As we just finished discussing.)"

Let's slow down a second and answer this one first. Excellent question. Consider plain old key of C major: our notes are CDEFGABC and our chords are C Dm Em F G Am Bo. (o is diminished)

The F and G are major chords a whole step apart, so we know they are IV and V in the major key. But they could ALSO be III and IV in D Dorian. How do we know which it is if al we have is F & G? Context. Song A is in C major, Song B is in D Dorian...

Song A:
C | F | Am | G | Dm | G | C | % ||

Song B:
Dm | G | Dm | G | F | C | Dm | % ||

Play trough those examples and you will hear the difference. Once that sinks in, consider "So You Wanna Be A Rock & Roll Star" by the Byrds.

Verse: G A | G A | ad nauseum
Chorus: D | E7 | A7 | D ||

Verses are in (my opinion) A Mixolydian, and resolve to a D major chord at the beginning of the chorus. I could have also called it G Lydian, but it just "feels" more like A is the base (B-A-S-E) chord there.

Now it gets tricky: the chorus is in D, but there is an E7 chord??? Shouldn't that be Em? Yes, but in this case it's not pervasive to the melody. In other words, they're not singing any G#'s, which would indicate a new key/mode. It's still plain old D major. The A7 (contains G nat) is a dead giveaway of this.

So even with "hard evidence" like two major chords a whole step apart, you still have to let your ear be the judge. Where they "getcha" is the chorus by throwing in an E major chord! But it's just used as a pickup to the A major chord (or A7) right after. The most basic resolution in western music is V7 to I. The A7 to D in the chorus is a naturally occurring V7-I, and the E7-A7 temporarily takes us out of the D key to achieve the same kind of resolution. It's like adding a good follow through to your golf swing. E7-A7-D. That's a secondary dominant, or V7 of V, which we'll save for later!

Charly: if someone says "Let's do this in C Mix," it's CDEFGABbC, and C Dm Eo F Gm Am Bb. "Let's do this in C" is CDEFGABC and C Dm Em F G Am Bo. But if anyone talks like that in a band rehearsal you should really punch them.

sloop_john_b · Post by **sloop_john_b** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 7:08 am

Secondary dominants! This is about to get VERY ugly.

Being a music student and a bit of a theory nerd, i'm all for learning this stuff. But i'm still not understanding exactly how you plan to apply all this stuff to your basslines Charly. Of course it's great to know - but when i'm playing bass or even when i'm composing a song, the idea comes first - THEN I sit back and say "Oh, so this is what i'm doing here, interesting".

squirefan01 · Post by **squirefan01** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 7:41 am

I printed out the page that Charly referred to, and went through it a bunch of times last night. drawing things out until I felt like I got it. That did help alot.

So I'll go back and work on that now that it seems more clear. The next thing that came to mind though was this. That page uses a 1-3-5 example. So I could use 1-3-5 and move all around those chords, like in the C tonic example they gave. But then I start to want to add something more in. I know I can just try it but theoretically is there a special process of changing between 1-3-5 and something else like say 1-4-7, 1-3-5-6, 2-4-6, etc.? Is there a point where it takes away from the progression by changing too much?

charlyg · Post by **charlyg** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 7:43 am

I have a dream! I wan to play at the blues jam at Cozy's.

At the moment, if there was a sax on stage and they wanted to do blues in Bb, my bass line would not be very interesting!

I am assuming theory helps you jam, if you don't have the natural ability to discern this stuff aurally.

And I am a technician, and always have been, so I need theory like a fish needs water. I need to understand why I am doing what I am doing, not that I can get by with what I now know. If I can find one or two chords of a song aurally, I would like to be able to fill in most of the rest with theory, and quickly.

Jdog - I will play through those chords tonight, but on paper that ain't a whole lot of difference!

charlyg · Post by **charlyg** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 7:50 am

Greg - As long as you know the sharps and flats that are in the key, and use those when necessary, you can pound around on the major scale. You get into trouble when trying to fit all the notes of the chromatic scale, as they don't all exist in the chords in a particular key. In other words, don't play F# on the bass whilst in the key of C. As a bassist, we are most concerned with 1-3-5-7 and the minors and augs/dims, so we know which way to move the 3-5-7 a half step. IMHO

One other thing, If you play the 3 or the 5 when you should be playing the tonic (I am speaking of the triad not the progression), you have an inversion, which colors the chord differently.

jdogric12 · Post by **jdogric12** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 8:26 am

"don't play F# on the bass whilst in the key of C"

Listen to the 1st verse of "Everything" by Alanis Morrisette.

"you have an inversion"

Elton John's songs are littered with 1st and 2nd inversion chords. It's a signature part of his songwriting. Good example: 1st chord of the chorus to "Your Song" is Bb/D (lyrics: "You can tell...")

charlyg · Post by **charlyg** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 8:33 am

So, are these exceptions or rules?