The first is an exception, just a slight meander from the beaten path.
The second is an example of inversions.
Harmony Wheel and Mode Question for bass
Yes, I do inversions when the song calls for it.
Just in case someone doesn't know when the song calls for it, you just have to listen to how the chord is colored in the original. To me, the inversion creates a tension that resolves when you get back to the tonic. And, someone once told me, music is like movies, a constant battle between tension and resolution...
Just in case someone doesn't know when the song calls for it, you just have to listen to how the chord is colored in the original. To me, the inversion creates a tension that resolves when you get back to the tonic. And, someone once told me, music is like movies, a constant battle between tension and resolution...
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blueflamerick
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Charly, I don't think you'd ever have to worry about someone wanting to play a song in a mode other than the one it was written in. It wouldn't work. I think it's great to be able to play one song in a variety of different keys, especially to accommodate the range of a singer or a certain instrument. Changing the mode would alter the melody and chord progression to the point where it would become a different song.
If you get tired of playing a I-IV-V progression, try substituting vi-ii in place of the IV (I-vi-ii-V).
If you get tired of playing a I-IV-V progression, try substituting vi-ii in place of the IV (I-vi-ii-V).
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blueflamerick
- Advanced Member
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If I could have the sheet music for most any bass part in pop, rock(not prog) or blues, I could play it in a heartbeat(well, I'm sure there are some things I would have trouble with...). I can't figure out tab, as there is no timing info and it drives me crazy. Years of playing the trombone made me fairly proficient in sight reading sheet music, not so for tabs!
Ok Charly,
I had to go back to read this entire thread again. We have SO much in common, it's scary! Greg seems to be in a similar boat as well.
I only play in church also, and I know exactly what you are saying.
I want to learn this EXACT same material myself. I know the root, third, fifth two string form in my sleep. I've never had any lessons, so I'm completely self taught. I did play double bass for years as a kid, but never went beyond the first position and after my teenage years, all my memory banks were wiped clean!
After a 20 year respite, and raising kids, paying a mortgage etc, the opportunity presented itself again. All those wasted years of not playing, SAD. I envy you young'un's!
In my limited experience, when a bass player starts talking about wanting to "learn more", the response is generally "less is more" from the guitarist.
I think our goals are similar being we are both playing the same type of songs. I don't want to "busy up" the mix, I just want to learn more MELODIC options in my playing. JDOG, you are the only one who has heard me play live, you are uniquely qualified to chime into this, although I know your REALLY busy at this time of year. I'd REALLY appreciate your input.
For LACK of a better example, I'm looking to add some color or flavor if you will, into the mix. More of a MELLOW Michael Manring sound. NO, not the busy lead stuff, but the MELLOW sweet melodic harmonic chorded type sound. THIS is why I want my fretless SO bad, even more than my DCM.
I'm only into chapter 2 of the book, and it's ALREADY paying dividends. MOST of these damn books ASSUME you have had a music theory background and I ALWAYS get lost about 1/2 way through the book. The ONLY other book that has really helped me is Bass Playing for Dummies. Yeah, I know, I know, but that too has lost me in the theory section, but helped me fill in a lot of the missing pieces.
This book doesn't get "in depth" but more of the "here it is, play this" which is what I really needed.
Now, if I understand correctly, these Root, 1st inversion and 2nd inversions can be played ALL OVER THE NECK, as long as there are enough strings to complete the run?
I NEVER understood inversions before, and to be honest, they scared the heck out of me. I'm lucky I can remember my cell phone number, so memorizing these is going to take me some time. I didn't look ahead yet, but last night, I started the 3 string inversions. I'll practice most of the day today and let you know how I make out.
The Harmony wheel hasn't arrived yet.
PLEASE let me know what or how you are doing and what snags you have hit so far. I think this is SUCH a great idea Charly, nothing like working out of the same book.
THANK YOU and this should be a great journey my friend, glad we're doing it together.
Talk to you later!
I had to go back to read this entire thread again. We have SO much in common, it's scary! Greg seems to be in a similar boat as well.
I only play in church also, and I know exactly what you are saying.
I want to learn this EXACT same material myself. I know the root, third, fifth two string form in my sleep. I've never had any lessons, so I'm completely self taught. I did play double bass for years as a kid, but never went beyond the first position and after my teenage years, all my memory banks were wiped clean!
After a 20 year respite, and raising kids, paying a mortgage etc, the opportunity presented itself again. All those wasted years of not playing, SAD. I envy you young'un's!
In my limited experience, when a bass player starts talking about wanting to "learn more", the response is generally "less is more" from the guitarist.
I think our goals are similar being we are both playing the same type of songs. I don't want to "busy up" the mix, I just want to learn more MELODIC options in my playing. JDOG, you are the only one who has heard me play live, you are uniquely qualified to chime into this, although I know your REALLY busy at this time of year. I'd REALLY appreciate your input.
For LACK of a better example, I'm looking to add some color or flavor if you will, into the mix. More of a MELLOW Michael Manring sound. NO, not the busy lead stuff, but the MELLOW sweet melodic harmonic chorded type sound. THIS is why I want my fretless SO bad, even more than my DCM.
I'm only into chapter 2 of the book, and it's ALREADY paying dividends. MOST of these damn books ASSUME you have had a music theory background and I ALWAYS get lost about 1/2 way through the book. The ONLY other book that has really helped me is Bass Playing for Dummies. Yeah, I know, I know, but that too has lost me in the theory section, but helped me fill in a lot of the missing pieces.
This book doesn't get "in depth" but more of the "here it is, play this" which is what I really needed.
Now, if I understand correctly, these Root, 1st inversion and 2nd inversions can be played ALL OVER THE NECK, as long as there are enough strings to complete the run?
I NEVER understood inversions before, and to be honest, they scared the heck out of me. I'm lucky I can remember my cell phone number, so memorizing these is going to take me some time. I didn't look ahead yet, but last night, I started the 3 string inversions. I'll practice most of the day today and let you know how I make out.
The Harmony wheel hasn't arrived yet.
PLEASE let me know what or how you are doing and what snags you have hit so far. I think this is SUCH a great idea Charly, nothing like working out of the same book.
THANK YOU and this should be a great journey my friend, glad we're doing it together.
Talk to you later!
"Freedom of expression is important, but I have learned that people want to know how much you care before they care how much you know."
The only time a bass player gets noticed is when he stops playing.
The only time a bass player gets noticed is when he stops playing.
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sloop_john_b
- Rick-a-holic
- Posts: 13843
- Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2005 6:00 am
Inversions are really very simple, Tony.
Think of it this way. Say we have a C chord - C E and G. If all the other instruments are playing a C chord, usually the bass would play a C, right?
Well, inversions are simply when other notes in the chord act as the bass note.
- First inversion of a C chord would have E (3rd) in the bass.
- Second inversion of a C chord would have G (5th) in the bass.
- Third inversion (If applicable) of a C7 chord would be either a B or a Bb (Or even a Bbb), depending on the type of 7th chord it is.
Of course, that doesn't mean you should necessarily play inversions arbitrarily when holding down the bass lines. Perhaps your book will help with this, but I find that creating a bassline around a chord progression is when the power of these inversions get discovered.
Think of it this way. Say we have a C chord - C E and G. If all the other instruments are playing a C chord, usually the bass would play a C, right?
Well, inversions are simply when other notes in the chord act as the bass note.
- First inversion of a C chord would have E (3rd) in the bass.
- Second inversion of a C chord would have G (5th) in the bass.
- Third inversion (If applicable) of a C7 chord would be either a B or a Bb (Or even a Bbb), depending on the type of 7th chord it is.
Of course, that doesn't mean you should necessarily play inversions arbitrarily when holding down the bass lines. Perhaps your book will help with this, but I find that creating a bassline around a chord progression is when the power of these inversions get discovered.
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squirefan01
- Intermediate Member
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- Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 6:00 am
I am glad to see this thread still active too. That page that Charly referred to earlier really got me going, but only on chords within a major (Ionian) scale. So I got the I-ii-iii-IV-V-vi-vii(dim) part and have been playing like crazy for the last week. Your old '87 is getting a good workout Charly!
The next (still very basic and a bit embarrassing) questions for me are:
1) Applying this to other scales. I suppose it's the same theory for them all? So I get the tonic and the notes of a full scale, like say Phrygian. So for a tonic of A and a I-IV-V progression, I could start with a 1-3-5 chord (A-C-E), go to D-F-A, then E-G-A#?? So, really, it looks like instead of I-IV-V, this is actually i-iv-v, right?
I suppose I could look it up, but by any chance is the minor progression i-II-III-iv-v-VI-VII(dom)? That's just a guess.
2) When I am playing chords on the Ionian, I stick with the same tonic forever. Once I get into a groove that I really like, I am fearful of ruining it by moving to a different tonic. There is so much I can do with the same tonic that it really doesn't bother me much, but I do want to try moving around a bit more. Where to go next? Does it matter?
Thanks
The next (still very basic and a bit embarrassing) questions for me are:
1) Applying this to other scales. I suppose it's the same theory for them all? So I get the tonic and the notes of a full scale, like say Phrygian. So for a tonic of A and a I-IV-V progression, I could start with a 1-3-5 chord (A-C-E), go to D-F-A, then E-G-A#?? So, really, it looks like instead of I-IV-V, this is actually i-iv-v, right?
I suppose I could look it up, but by any chance is the minor progression i-II-III-iv-v-VI-VII(dom)? That's just a guess.
2) When I am playing chords on the Ionian, I stick with the same tonic forever. Once I get into a groove that I really like, I am fearful of ruining it by moving to a different tonic. There is so much I can do with the same tonic that it really doesn't bother me much, but I do want to try moving around a bit more. Where to go next? Does it matter?
Thanks
You've got no reason to be embarassed, Greg. It takes a long time for this stuff to sink in, and most people never have the cojones to try, especially considering most people stop using the part of their brain that learns after they turn 18 years old or so. (A statistic I heard once)
Let's stick to the key of C major (no sharps no flats) for now.
C major is C D E F G A B C (scale)
and our chords are
C Dm Em F G A Bo
and we call this Ionian, because it's based on major, or I, or 1, etc etc.
The RELATED Phrygian scale is E Phrygian. We'll call them RELATED because they have the same key signature, no sharps no flats. Just like siblings share parents, RELATED modes share a key signature.
so E Phrygian is E F G A B C D E (the scale)
and our chords are
Em F G Am Bo C Dm
Looks exactly like C Ionian except with a different starting note.
Something to remember: C Ionian and C Phrygian would not be RELATED at all, because they come from different keys. Think of it like a family tree. All the keys are on top, and the modes branch out underneath. Underneath the "key of C" you would have the following children:
C Ionian
D Dorian
E Phrygian
F Lydian
G Mixolydian
A Aeolian
B Locrian (the red headed step child)
They all share the exact same set of notes. The only difference is what note you start the scale on, or consider as tonic. Which is pretty hard to pull off in anything except Ionian, Dorian, Mixolydian, or Aeolian. Lydian's not too bad but tricky, and Phrygian and Locrian just sound WEIRD!
Now to answer the question about progressions and I-IV-V's and i-iv-v's and whatnot.
I-IV-V is pretty common for Ionian.
i-iv-v is pretty common for Aeolian (minor).
A common variation in minor (Aeolian) is to raise the 7th note of the scale. In A minor that would be making G a G#. That has the consequence of turning your E minor chord into an E major chord. This is done to give a stronger resolution or "pull" when you follow it with the tonic A minor chord. Be warned: if you do this, yes, you are outside of the key and altering the mode. But it's out there a LOT, so when you see Am - Dm - E7 (thus i-iv-V) don't flip out trying to figure out what weird mode it is.
Let's stick to the key of C major (no sharps no flats) for now.
C major is C D E F G A B C (scale)
and our chords are
C Dm Em F G A Bo
and we call this Ionian, because it's based on major, or I, or 1, etc etc.
The RELATED Phrygian scale is E Phrygian. We'll call them RELATED because they have the same key signature, no sharps no flats. Just like siblings share parents, RELATED modes share a key signature.
so E Phrygian is E F G A B C D E (the scale)
and our chords are
Em F G Am Bo C Dm
Looks exactly like C Ionian except with a different starting note.
Something to remember: C Ionian and C Phrygian would not be RELATED at all, because they come from different keys. Think of it like a family tree. All the keys are on top, and the modes branch out underneath. Underneath the "key of C" you would have the following children:
C Ionian
D Dorian
E Phrygian
F Lydian
G Mixolydian
A Aeolian
B Locrian (the red headed step child)
They all share the exact same set of notes. The only difference is what note you start the scale on, or consider as tonic. Which is pretty hard to pull off in anything except Ionian, Dorian, Mixolydian, or Aeolian. Lydian's not too bad but tricky, and Phrygian and Locrian just sound WEIRD!
Now to answer the question about progressions and I-IV-V's and i-iv-v's and whatnot.
I-IV-V is pretty common for Ionian.
i-iv-v is pretty common for Aeolian (minor).
A common variation in minor (Aeolian) is to raise the 7th note of the scale. In A minor that would be making G a G#. That has the consequence of turning your E minor chord into an E major chord. This is done to give a stronger resolution or "pull" when you follow it with the tonic A minor chord. Be warned: if you do this, yes, you are outside of the key and altering the mode. But it's out there a LOT, so when you see Am - Dm - E7 (thus i-iv-V) don't flip out trying to figure out what weird mode it is.