Banning of Rickenbacker on basschat uk

[doctorwho]

Truly wonderful CJ - best laugh I've had in ages!

Also a good antidote to some of the rest of this thread...

+1!

[Bassman4]

But you need to "get" that we are not a company like ebay, Gumtree etc, but a forum run by enthusiasts and will respond in a reasonable amount going forward.

I certainly "get it" that BassChat is not like eBay and Gumtree . . . not even close. Nevertheless, it is operated as a commercial entity, soliciting and accepting advertising for compensation, as well as selling goods in its own online shop. While we haven't found a Company House registration yet, the actions of the site clearly are those of a business.

The RRF here is a much better example of an enthusiast-based operation, accepting no advertising and not involved directly in the sale of goods.

John, you clearly don't. Ebay and Gumtree etc are multi-national commercial concerns who exist to make commercial gain from sales. Basschat is a minority enthusiasts board run by less than a handful of enthusiasts for no financial gain in their spare time. You're right, not even close, why would it be? Any small change revenue gained from advertisers contributes to the running costs of such a board.

I have thoroughly enjoyed the using the board myself, even starting couple of threads of my own asking those who know more than me about Rickenbacker basses.

Having read through the email exchanges it appears that you are unique among bass manufacture CEOs in pursuing these bass enthusiasts for something that others are doing on their board with an outrageously arrogant attitude and wonder why they began to ask questions and have eventually got fed up with you. Their responses may be naive, but then they are not CEOs paying for a team of lawyers but just bass playing enthusiasts but have always been polite, willing to help even if it goes against their will.

So that they can sleep at night, they quite rightly want to be rid of you and your attitude and threats. Unfortunately this means losing a small but strange aspect of the freedom of the board, content related to one of the less popular but nonetheless, more interesting manufacturers.

And it would appear they have still allowed friendly discussion of Rickenbacker products on their board, but have banned all advertising, including that from any shops, which may include a Rickenbacker design as they can never be sure the rules you are trying to set won't change an they have the distasteful matter of dealing with you again.

I'm afraid your name is becoming a byword in the bass community, such a shame the fascinating designs were not inherited by someone else.

By regarding this forum, of course you take no commercial adverts, you are a manufacturer, and you ARE involved in the sale of instruments, in the For Sale section, exactly the same way as there is one on Basschat.

I'm sorry, as a result of your attitude I have lost all interest in your products, new or old. I voted that you and your company should be thrown out of Basschat completely, the moderators are more patient than I.

[admin]

Paul I have made two brief edits owing to RRF rules.

I have never enjoyed seeing issues that start on one board discussed on another as details of the original positions made are often lost on both sides and the issues can take on a life of their own.

In any case, as the genie is out of the bottle and with decorum satisfied, those interested in the thread should be able to comment freely.

[Ashgray]

I have to disagree Paul. Copyright and trademark laws do not only apply to large commercial outfits - they apply to everyone. Whatever people may personally feel about such laws, compliance is not a matter of choice, or subject to available resources to deal with breaches - it is mandatory. It applies to those actually selling such goods and those advertising such goods for sale.

In my view, if John's name is becoming a "byword", then it's due to his steadfast approach to protecting his intellectual property and, ultimately, the livelihood of not only himself but the workforce at RIC. If cheap copy instruments that either claim or look to be something that they are not, and that openly flout copyright or registered trademarks are allowed to flood the market unchecked, the reputation and viability of genuine businesses such as RIC who have been at the forefront of their chosen market since long before most of us were born can be seriously undermined, perhaps to the point where they end up going out of business. This eventuality is a fact in some businesses that are affected by such issues.

As I see it, John is simply asking that where such issues are identified, they are dealt with promptly, with some understanding of what's at stake and active co-operation in eradicating the problem. I'm sure that if such issues were affecting our own businesses, we'd take a similar stance.

Just my 2 cents -worth...

[ligumo]

I don't like what John Hall said about the UK.

I think that basschat did what they had to. I had never visited it before this happened, but I've actually found it to be quite informative and the tone seems friendly for the most part.

[edited at I pressed submit too soon]

[Ashgray]

Unfortunately Alex, having spend quite a number of years moderating a number of UK-based internet fora, I have to admit that I can see where John is coming from.

It shames me to say so but I've often thought that some UK residents have an unfortunate habit of liking to be unnecessarily argumentative, obstructive or controversial on internet fora. I've even handed in my moderator badge on such fora where I've felt that that tendency cannot be "policed" reasonably - those members always give us Brits a bad reputation internationally, against which we all tend to be judged.

[rickenbottom]

[quote="Bassman4
I'm sorry, as a result of your attitude I have lost all interest in your products, new or old. I voted that you and your company should be thrown out of Basschat completely, the moderators are more patient than I.[/quote]

REALLY. Ohwell

[johna]

By regarding this forum, of course you take no commercial adverts, you are a manufacturer, and you ARE involved in the sale of instruments, in the For Sale section, exactly the same way as there is one on Basschat.

I may have read the above the wrong way, but in most of the "not for profit" forums I have read including this and Basschat, the For Sale listings are by members selling their own gear, not the manufacturers.

As John Hall has pointed out previously, Fender lost control of their designs years ago. I don't blame Ric for defending their intellectual property in order to maintain a viable business. I'd rather post about vintage basses though.....

[Ashgray]

By regarding this forum, of course you take no commercial adverts, you are a manufacturer, and you ARE involved in the sale of instruments, in the For Sale section, exactly the same way as there is one on Basschat.

I may have read the above the wrong way, but in most of the "not for profit" forums I have read including this and Basschat, the For Sale listings are by members selling their own gear, not the manufacturers.

As John Hall has pointed out previously, Fender lost control of their designs years ago. I don't blame Ric for defending their intellectual property in order to maintain a viable business. I'd rather post about vintage basses though.....

You have indeed read the above the wrong way - the "quote" of mine that you have posted was not written by me!

May I suggest you edit your post appropriately?

[ligumo]

Unfortunately Alex, having spend quite a number of years moderating a number of UK-based internet fora, I have to admit that I can see where John is coming from.

It shames me to say so but I've often thought that some UK residents have an unfortunate habit of liking to be unnecessarily argumentative, obstructive or controversial on internet fora. I've even handed in my moderator badge on such fora where I've felt that that tendency cannot be "policed" reasonably - those members always give us Brits a bad reputation internationally, against which we all tend to be judged.

I do take your point Ashley, I rarely contribute to ANY forums in the last decade usually to avoid that kind of behaviour, although there's many I do read for information. But don't you find it's the same on any kind of forum wherever it's based? I don't think it's exclusive to the UK.

[Ashgray]

To a degree, yes, but I do think, in general, that US citizens tend to be more "chilled out" over such issues than the Brits. It's always seemed to me that we love an argument.

[Hotzenplotz]

I may have read the above the wrong way, but in most of the "not for profit" forums I have read including this and Basschat, the For Sale listings are by members selling their own gear, not the manufacturers.

Not completely correct:
New colours, limited editions, one-offs and other stuff is announced or "extensively explained" (in the end: advertised) here, too. - A kind of PR.
Also there is automatically some image cultivation from the factory just being here - in the end their presence is not just pure altruism, it is a tool of advertising and market research. (I would do exactly the same!)

Further on we have a luthier here that shows in an very intersting and long thread the results of his work.
(And I would do exactly the same, too.) This is nothing less than a virtual shop window.

When talking about a non profit character and red lines it needs a clarification of reality.

Until here I count five tools of a classical marketing.

All this is not an opinion it is just an observation.

[Bassman4]

By regarding this forum, of course you take no commercial adverts, you are a manufacturer, and you ARE involved in the sale of instruments, in the For Sale section, exactly the same way as there is one on Basschat.

I may have read the above the wrong way, but in most of the "not for profit" forums I have read including this and Basschat, the For Sale listings are by members selling their own gear, not the manufacturers.

As John Hall has pointed out previously, Fender lost control of their designs years ago. I don't blame Ric for defending their intellectual property in order to maintain a viable business. I'd rather post about vintage basses though.....

The For Sale section in Basschat is for this too, John has been threatening the volunteer moderators for private sales posted by members selling their own gear, not the manufacturers. It's been noted how he does not appear to be pursuing manufacturers as they are still openly advertising their wares elsewhere. He does appear to pursue and threaten individuals.

Regarding 'loss of control' I think most of us have progressed in our lives from copies of Fenders et al to proud ownership of the 'real thing'. This seems to have helped the likes of Fender and Gibson to increase their sales to become the giants they are today. Sadly, that won't be happening to Rickenbacker. It's understood that this is John's prerogative, it's not a problem. It's been his swaggering attitude and bullying nature that has set people's backs up and given a bad taste.

Anyway, Basschat have debated with their members and, I think, reached a reasonable compromise which shows no vendetta but protects themselves from the likes of John while enjoying freedom to continue as they were regarding all other basses.

[telebass]

To a degree, yes, but I do think, in general, that US citizens tend to be more "chilled out" over such issues than the Brits. It's always seemed to me that we love an argument.

I hate to admit it, but this has hit the nail on the head. And I'm somewhat embarrassed that what started as a dispute between the Basschat Moderators and John Hall has spilled over onto to this site.

[Ashgray]

To a degree, yes, but I do think, in general, that US citizens tend to be more "chilled out" over such issues than the Brits. It's always seemed to me that we love an argument.

I hate to admit it, but this has hit the nail on the head. And I'm somewhat embarrassed that what started as a dispute between the Basschat Moderators and John Hall has spilled over onto to this site.

Agreed, and as I think I said earlier, I don't see why we (this forum) should carry the fall-out of other fora who are at the forefront of this argument. This thread, IMHO, should be locked. The longer it exists, the more people who have views on new posts will feel obliged to offer comment on what is, in my view, someone else's dirty washing.